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Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

I think the assumption came from the description saying that many redwizards able to lead a circle collect thier spell levels daily from thier appretices.

It is a good point to point out that it does not say what level those apprentices are.

Also the levels can only be applied to the spells that the caster has already prepared.

To quote:

"The circle leader may add one of the three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leaders normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th)."

So yes our red wizard could cast spells higher than any other 15th level specialist. That 8th level spell can become a 20th level spell. Or he could maximise and empower all his magic missiles if memorised a slew of them at 1st level. (heightening it does not good). Unless I am mistaken, fireballs still cant do more than 90 points of damage, but that save can become a problem.

Aaron.
 

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Grog said:
Well, of course I can power him down myself and/or play him less effectively. That's not the point. The point is that the class, as written, is horribly, horribly broken.

I apologize for missing the point:

Grog said:
I was planning an adventure for a 13th-14th level party and was looking at using one of these guys for a villian (after adapting the organization to my campaign world). Boy did I drop that idea fast.

That part might've confused me. I was just trying to solve that problem for you.

And even a Wiz10/Red Wizard 5 could still get 20+ spell levels in his pool, which would be more than enough to do the Empowered Maximized Cone of Cold / Quickened Empowered Maximized Fireball combo I mentioned before.

That would be a strong combo, but wouldn't be a problem in my games, since people like to pack protection from elements in them at 14th level.
 

He has a single 10th levl Cohort, and 23 followers (1 is third level, 2 are second, the other 20 are 1st) ... all of whom are warriors or commoners.

This is a 3.5 thread. Followers are not restricted to Experts or Commoners - and can be specialist Wizards. If this is a Red Wizard of Thay - they probably are.

Secondly, just because he is 15th level doesn't mean his leadership score is. If he has +4 in Charisma + Leadership bonuses he'll have his maximum - a 13th level Cohort.

Second off, you can't heighten a spell to a level higher than you can actually cast.

...Unless you are a Red Wizard, or have another similar ability. But since we are talking about the Red Wizard here, I fail to see your point.

Actually the big normal limit is that Heighten Spell won't go past 9th level - unless you are Red Wizard in which case it will.

Furthermore, heightening anything to 20th level would take an Epic character, with a slew of feats, most of them epic:

Unless you are using Circle Magic and are a Red Wizard. Then you can just use Spell Slots to pump it up to 20th level.

I don't care if you're burning the metamagic costs with Circle Magic ... the same limitation put on the Instant Metamagic ability of the Incantatrix: you have to have at least had the option to have prepared it yourself, to be able to cast it that way.

That's a piece of errata for the 3e Incantatrix. If they had wanted such a rule on the 3.5 Red Wizard it would say that.


I'm one of the GMs for an Epic arena

A 3rd edition Epic Arena from the degree to which you've been ignoring the 3.5 rules I should hope.

-Frank
 

FrankTrollman said:
This is a 3.5 thread. Followers are not restricted to Experts or Commoners - and can be specialist Wizards. If this is a Red Wizard of Thay - they probably are.
Oh cripes, he has a 3rd-level wizard follower! Run away! Head for the hills! Fly, you fools!

(That's still a long, long, long way from having a circle of 9 Wiz9 specialist buddies.)
 

Grog said:
Again, the 9th level wizards won't be in the fight. That's the whole point - they don't need to be. They add their power to the leader at the beginning of the day, and that's all they need to contribute.
They need to exist for him to use them. If he is the BBEG, the PCs can find them. It may take effort, but they are still in the game. Besides, as I pointed out, BBEGs tend to hide behind their underlings ... they don't dive out into combat before sending out their minions.
Grog said:
Cleric casts AMF, wizard teleports away until it wears off. And as for killing him with a save-or-die spell, he'll just buff himself with Spell Resistance before the fight. A caster level of 25 gives him SR 37. A 14th level caster would need Greater Spell Penetration to even have a chance of affecting him with a spell, and even then it would only work on a 19 or 20. If he wants to play things safe, he'll raise his caster level to 27 or maybe even 30. Now he's completely immune to any magic the party can throw at him.
Teleport from in an anti-magic field? Neat trick. And Mordenkainen's Disjunction takes down his buff spells. Even if the party is not 17th level, a scroll of this spell is often worth the purchase. If you're going against a Zulkir, I'd think it an obvious choice. And we must be talking a Zulkir if he has 9th level wizards at his beck and call.
Grog said:
First, he can Heighten spells up to 20th level, just so you know.
This has already been completely shot down by others.
Grog said:
And I know the DM can always kill the PCs. Again, that's not the point. I already reached the conclusion that this class was a walking TPK and decided not to use it. I'm talking about the class the way it's written in the DMG. It's absolutely ridiculous that they nerfed Spell Focus, which was not a game balance problem, and left this in. The class, as written, is unusable because if it's played intelligently (as a high-level wizard should be played) it will utterly obliterate parties that are even 5+ levels higher than it is.

The class is not balanced. That's my complaint.
This ability, if used at an extreme, is not balanced. You are completely correct on that point. Nobody has ever argued that a 15th level caster in an EL 17 encounter throwing out caster level 40 spells is balanced. The point is that this ability should not be able to be used at such extreme levels.

As for spell focus: by itself, a +2 to DCs is not very abusive. A +4 from 2 feats (SF and GSF) is abusive. The balance of the game is designed around DCs of 10 + spell level + ability score modifiers along a fairly predicatable curve as the character advances. The additional +s from greater spell focus and spell power abilities were complete idiocy. Nerfing spell focus while adjusting greater spell focus and spell power was not necessary, but it was a fine way to go.

As for the class being unusuable because the only intelligent thing to do is to use it to such an extreme level: That is like saying people should buy everything in the world because it is smart to have everything in the world. The problem with these statements is that it completelt ignores a simple component in the equation: nobody has unlimited resources. Your argument assumes that the wizard has many powerful minions running around at his beck and call. It assumes that these beings devoted a portion of their education to being able to serve that master as a battery. It assumes that they are willing to put themselves at risk as well: any enemy of the master will try to kill them to deny his battery.

As long as you assume ridiculous resources for the Red Wizard, this ability will be overpowered. If you consider real limitations, average NPC ability scores, etc ... this stuff falls into place rather easily.
 

Grog said:
he'll just buff himself with Spell Resistance before the fight. A caster level of 25 gives him SR 37. A 14th level caster would need Greater Spell Penetration to even have a chance of affecting him with a spell, and even then it would only work on a 19 or 20. If he wants to play things safe, he'll raise his caster level to 27 or maybe even 30. Now he's completely immune to any magic the party can throw at him.
.

Unless they use conjurations, which don't have SR applied. Or any other spells which don't allow SR for that matter.
 

Pax said:
And no, he's NOT effectively a 20th level caster. He's a 15th levl caster, with +10 caster levels when casting spells. He doesn't get to prepare any extra spells per day, nor cast spells of a higher level than any other 15th level specialist.

This is why I said 20th level caster and not 20th level wizard. His caster level is 20, before any circle magic.

Pax said:
Further, he has four, coun 'em four, opposition schools, none of them being Divination. And 5 of those bonus caster levels are specific to only one school.

Yes, this is significant. However, it in no way offsets the power gained by the PrC.

Pax said:
Um. Clue-by-four time.

Firt off, Finger of Death and "many buffs" aren't going to be in the same school of magic. Thus, he won't get the full caster level increase for both of them; the Red Wizard gets Specialist Spell Power, which only applies to their specialty school.

Second off, you can't heighten a spell to a level higher than you can actually cast. This, that Finger of Death isn't going ot be higher than an 8th level spell; the Spell Power-like benefits absolutely do not affect your number of spells per day! Nor what level of spell you can cast.

Clue-by-four yourself. The PrC description specifically says that the spell levels granted by the circle can metamagic a spell up to 20th level. Sorry, but you're wrong.

Pax said:
Furthermore, heightening anything to 20th level would take an Epic character, with a slew of feats, most of them epic:

Unless you're a Red Wizard, who can do it at 15th level (or possibly lower).

Pax said:
Sure there's somethign they can do ... there's this 6th level spell, you see, called "antimagic field" ... run up with the fighter, and pound the snot out of the then-crippled wizard.

And he just stands there and lets that happen, because he's a complete idiot who somehow managed to make it to 15th level as a wizard. Right.

Pax said:
The simple reason being, noone is allowed to simply assume that the ability to lead a Circle of fellow red wizards automatically grants you a Circle to lead.

Nor can you assume he won't have a circle to lead. If he's the head of a wizard's guild or something similar, he will definitely have access to a circle.
 
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jgsugden said:
As for the class being unusuable because the only intelligent thing to do is to use it to such an extreme level: That is like saying people should buy everything in the world because it is smart to have everything in the world. The problem with these statements is that it completelt ignores a simple component in the equation: nobody has unlimited resources. Your argument assumes that the wizard has many powerful minions running around at his beck and call. It assumes that these beings devoted a portion of their education to being able to serve that master as a battery. It assumes that they are willing to put themselves at risk as well: any enemy of the master will try to kill them to deny his battery.

You can't make the claim that because a PrC might not be able to use an ability under certain circumstances that that makes the ability balanced. If WotC produced a PrC that had the ability to cast a Finger of Death that allowed no saving throw and ignored Death Ward, but had to craft a ring costing 200,000gp in order to do it, would you argue that that was balanced? Would people be saying "The class is fine because you can't assume he'll have 200,000gp to spend"?

And having access to other wizards to form a circle does not require even close to unlimited resources. It would be perfectly reasonable for the head of a wizard's guild to have access to this. Having several 9th level minions is a very common thing for a 15th level BBEG to have - the Red Wizard just uses them in a different way.
 

Grog said:
Cleric casts AMF, wizard teleports away until it wears off. And as for killing him with a save-or-die spell, he'll just buff himself with Spell Resistance before the fight. A caster level of 25 gives him SR 37. A 14th level caster would need Greater Spell Penetration to even have a chance of affecting him with a spell, and even then it would only work on a 19 or 20. If he wants to play things safe, he'll raise his caster level to 27 or maybe even 30. Now he's completely immune to any magic the party can throw at him.

Is the Red Wizard a Cleric now? Since only clerics can cast Spell Resistance:

From SRD:

Spell Resistance
Abjuration
Level: Clr 5, Magic 5, Protection 5
 

Um, guys, unless I am misunderstanding the FRCS, Red Wizards DO have those sorts of rescources. They are an enormously powerful organization that rules a country and has a total monopoly on magic within it, as well as controlling a world-wide network of autonomous enclaves that trade among other things in magical items (Gee, I wonder who pays all those XP...certainly not the Zulkirs).

The only way to advance is to suck up to Red Wizards more powerful than yourself, and by suck up, I mean you're their b*tch. If not, you die.

It is prefectly reasonable to assume that they will have access to a good number of underlings to add to their circles.
 
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