Red Wizard - What the hell was WotC smoking????

[Madfox]

Mystra forbids Spells of Level 12 and up. 10th and 11th are allowed, but watched carefully. This restriction however is due to misdeeds of the Netherese. However, if you are a shadow weave caster, the restriction need not apply. Also the restrictions on Gods are chancy, as Ao has censured Mystra over cutting gods off from portions of the weave.

I doubt Shar is more forgiving then Mystra. The reason such spells were forbidden was because of the damage to the Weave and worldwide balance. Shar is a rather jalous deity, she would not want to have a rival nearly as powerful as she is

In any event, why are we discussing the specifics of somebodies home campaign? To each his own. The end goal of the game is to have fun and not to kill the PCs. As others have said, any DM can do so in a second.

The circle ability of the Red Wizard has a strong potential to be abused by the DM. The fact remains, that a 15th lvl wizard with 9x 9th lvl wizards is not an ECL 15 encounter. It is like stating that a fully buffed fighter with equipment far above his level is on a CR equal to his level.

Further then that I never really looked to deeply into the Red Wizard. The main enemy of my campaign is the Cult of Tiamat and a group of Ghanadaur worshippers

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The circle ability of the Red Wizard has a strong potential to be abused by the DM. The fact remains, that a 15th lvl wizard with 9x 9th lvl wizards is not an ECL 15 encounter. It is like stating that a fully buffed fighter with equipment far above his level is on a CR equal to his level.

Further then that I never really looked to deeply into the Red Wizard. The main enemy of my campaign is the Cult of Tiamat and a group of Ghanadaur worshippers

I think most of us agreed on the CR - however, even as an EL ~18 or so encounter it would be overpowered. Unless, of course, all the party members were optimized from day one for boosting saving throws and covered with non-core saving throw-boosting items, etc.

I expect errata for this...

 

[ruleslawyer]

As a matter of fact, he will NEVER have Epic Spellcasting, or rather ... not whilein the FR. Mystra forbids such powerful spells; Epic Spells simply don't work on Toril.

Not for anyone ... Gods included.

Not true, according at least to Rich Baker, who at present is WotC's lead FR designer.

From the WotC boards:

It seems I keep answering this question over and over again...
1. Mystra's Ban is still in effect. There are no 10th-level spells.
2. Metamagicking 9th-level and lower spells doesn't make a true "10th-level spell."
3. Epic spellcasting does not create 10th-level spells.
4. You're thinking way too hard about this, since the game changed editions. The notion of an epic spellcasting did not exist when Arcane Age materials were written back in the day of 2nd Edition.

 

[Pax]

Not true, according at least to Rich Baker, who at present is WotC's lead FR designer.

From the WotC boards:

It seems I keep answering this question over and over again...
1. Mystra's Ban is still in effect. There are no 10th-level spells.
2. Metamagicking 9th-level and lower spells doesn't make a true "10th-level spell."
3. Epic spellcasting does not create 10th-level spells.
4. You're thinking way too hard about this, since the game changed editions. The notion of an epic spellcasting did not exist when Arcane Age materials were written back in the day of 2nd Edition.

I am afraid Mr. Baker is not entirely correct in his assertation #3.

Spic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are treated as if they were 10th-leel spells.

So, the Ban does block Epic spells. Further, it makes perfect sense within the setting -- what else but an Epic spell could have had a chance of elevating even a Netherese archmage to godhood, while simultaneously threatening the life of Mystril/Mystara/Mystra and the fabric of magic itself ... ?

3.0/3.5 Epic Spells are generally the same as the old Netherese "True Dweomers"; they don't function in "modern" FR, nor should they. Mystra doesn't let the Weave power them, and even Shar isn't stupid enough to let the Shadow Weave do so.

 

[Gregor]

The later part of this thread reminds me of the WotC boards....and no, that is not a good thing.

 

[jgsugden]

WotC books are ripe with conflicting statements. Their internal consistency has taken a turn for the worse ... and it started out pretty bad.

When you talk about issues that involve so many detailed specifics, the conflicts raise their ugle head and you end up with pointless arguments like this one.

If you're looking for a 'victory' for your view, give up. The opposing side can find materials to support their argument. You may not agree with those arguments, but they'll be solid enough for your opponents to stand by them. Figure out how you want it to work in your game and live with the reality that other players will decide on other interpretations. All we can do is offer suggestions on how we would play it.

 

[Madfox]

I think most of us agreed on the CR - however, even as an EL ~18 or so encounter it would be overpowered. Unless, of course, all the party members were optimized from day one for boosting saving throws and covered with non-core saving throw-boosting items, etc.

I don't know about your players, but mine are certainly optimizing their PCs for saving throws and the cleric is more and more willing to have a neutralize poison and death ward up and running.

In any event, if you are foolish enough to attack an arch-wizard without proper preperations (especially when you know he is expacting you), then you deserve a good beating. Even without the circle ability a wizard of those levels who can prepare is lethal.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I am afraid Mr. Baker is not entirely correct in his assertation #3.

How so?

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

If epic spells have no fixed leve, then it is a reasonable interpretation that they are not 10th-level spells except where you need to attach a number to level checks and DCs. As jgsugden points out, it's easy to read these sorts of statements either way. More to the point: Do you really think it's a reasonable reading of this statement to imply that Mystra's Ban, a big, subjective campaign issue, belongs in the same category of "Concentration checks [and] spell resistance"? Mr. Baker's words on the subject make a lot more sense than trying to read 10th-level spell status into epic spellcasting.

Further, it makes perfect sense within the setting -- what else but an Epic spell could have had a chance of elevating even a Netherese archmage to godhood, while simultaneously threatening the life of Mystril/Mystara/Mystra and the fabric of magic itself ... ?

Such a spell would have a DC far beyond the capacity of any wizard in the Realms to develop as an epic spell.

Ah, yes. A setting that has its own prestige class (the Elven High Mage) entirely devoted to developing and casting epic spells. A setting that continually mentions the fact that various kinds of cooperative, ritual magic (the leveling of a mountain by the wizards of Neverwinter, Elven High Magic) have been possible to accomplish effects beyond the power of regular 9th-level spells even after the fall of Mystra, albeit at great cost.

3.0/3.5 Epic Spells are generally the same as the old Netherese "True Dweomers".

Just proved my point here. The "true dweomers" to which you're referring are a mechanic developed in the 2e High-Level Campaigns supplement. Those spells were specifically termed to not be actual 10th-level spells. The Netherese spells, OTOH, were termed actual 10th, 11th, and 12th-level spells, according to Netheril: Empire of Magic.

In any case, I'll take Rich's word on the subject, thank you.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't know about your players, but mine are certainly optimizing their PCs for saving throws and the cleric is more and more willing to have a neutralize poison and death ward up and running.

In any event, if you are foolish enough to attack an arch-wizard without proper preperations (especially when you know he is expacting you), then you deserve a good beating. Even without the circle ability a wizard of those levels who can prepare is lethal.

My players optimize their saving throws too, but they're not in the habit of making Fortitude save DC 40 or die!

Furthermore, a Red Wizard can strip off their buffs like any other wizard ... with his uber Nondetection going the players can't even see him.

 

[Toras]

Nondetection wouldn't help you get close enough undetected dispelled buffs, they really don't have that much of a range. A better choice would be improved invisibility if your red wizard didn't give up that school.

Red Wizard appears, invisible and undetectable. He begins to dispell the Death Wards and other buffs places on us. We would notice them being dispelled. Somebody casts True Sight or Invisibility Purge. Now quite visible wizard has at least one very anger personl to deal with. And he better hope he wins initiative, because as a wizard you don't have a lot of hit points and a sword through your gut is likely going to make casting difficult.