Redone Black Dragon from GenCon

[keterys]

Heh, poor Ranger, worst PR in the world.

Looking just at a normal party, then. Five person party, they've got three melee characters. They can probably dance such that they _only_ trigger the blood on themselves 4 times (two of them manage to do it when no one else is adjacent, and the last has one person adjacent so one of them gets hit twice). Sure, someone will miss... instead it'll tail swipe one of them to make up the difference.

And it probably takes two or three rounds of that to get it down.

Even if only a single member suffers from vulnerability, that's 25-30 damage per round for the party. In a group that likely has, at 3rd level, only 175 total hp in the party. And it could be a lot worse if they don't plan things right or take more than a round to figure out how to deal.

Even if it misses 50% of the time, the dragon's still doing about 23 damage per round. That doesn't give you a lot of rounds to finish the dragon off. Certain groups might effectively have to just run out of melee and throw daggers or javelins, slowing the combat down and just creating a downright silly outcome.

I _really_ like this dragon a whole lot better, but the acid blood angle just feels... really off. Mostly just in the fact that it can happen multiple times per round to a single person, and can _really_ screw people who fall. I'd like it a lot better if it were just ongoing... which still lets everyone get hit by it once per round. But, whatever, I'll see how it goes.

 

[FireLance]

In a group that likely has, at 3rd level, only 105 total hp in the party.

I think the estimate of 105 total hp is a little low. Assuming a defender, two strikers, a leader and a controller with 15, 12, 12, 12, 10 Constitution, the hp numbers at 3rd level should be:

Defender: 15 + 15 + 6 + 6 = 42
Striker1: 12 + 12 + 5 + 5 = 34
Striker2: 12 + 12 + 5 + 5 = 34
Leader: 12 + 12 + 5 + 5 = 34
Controller: 10 + 10 + 4 + 4 = 28

42 + 34 + 34 + 34 + 28 = 172 hp. In addition, the leader should have two minor action hp restoring abilities which, if used on the defender and a striker, should add another 18 hp plus leader bonuses, bringing the party's total hp resources close to 200 hp.

Incidentally, the young black dragon is a 4th-level monster. Shouldn't we be looking at the numbers for a 4th-level party?

 

[keterys]

I think the estimate of 105 total hp is a little low.

*cough* Only cause it has a 0 instead of 7, as it should have I meant to multiply by 5, but apparently multiplied by the 3 melee combatants? Oops.

Incidentally, the young black dragon is a 4th-level monster. Shouldn't we be looking at the numbers for a 4th-level party?

No... really no. Not unless you want to also factor in its multiple kobold (or whatever) friends, and that just mucks the math all up.

 

[Aegeri]

No... really no. Not unless you want to also factor in its multiple kobold (or whatever) friends, and that just mucks the math all up.

I have since had a run of this Dragon with a 4th level party from Marauders of the Astral Sea (levelled them from 3-4). Let me 100% assure you this monster is a solo by every definition. He needs absolutely no friends to kick the complete ass off a party. At the end, from being completely fresh and all the metagaming I could muster, all characters were brutally mauled and expended a good chunk of action points/dailies. A couple went down during the fight, but it worked really well and was very fun.

He doesn't need friends.

This is a level 4 solo lurker that genuinely challenges a level 4 party by himself. Anything else you want to throw on that is just making it even more brutal. I believe what we're seeing with new solo design is that you can put other things with it, but you don't have to and they genuinely work as solos in many cases. This is a good thing.

Note my test fight done under the following conditions:

Maptools beta 70
Level 4 Half-Orc Warden
Level 4 Shardmind Monk
Level 4 Wilden Shaman
Level 4 Goliath Wizard
Level 4 Gnome Bard
Planet Bowling Ball*
Normal initiative.
Party has maximum resources

The party is real - it's a mirror of my IRL games party but everything else I acknowledge is very artificial including some of my assumptions. The point of this is that if it could easily overwhelm a party with zero terrain support and similar that would be a huge issue. As it was they won comfortably - but they still took a royal beating. Exactly what you'd want from a solo.

*No terrain. I would definitely have terrain in this fight to make it more dynamic and interesting. Actually I thought the battle went very well despite these extremely simplistic and artificial conditions. Terrain and other things will only make it better.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Can't say I have any sympathy for the acid blood. I'd say that, as a rule, you know you're coming up against a dragon about 7 times out of 10. It's called tactics, people.

-Buy acid resist gear
-Drink acid resist potions
-Use acid resist powers
-Get a polearm
-Don't stand next to the thing spraying acid blood on you

If you shoot a dragon with an arrow and it splatters 5 acid damage on the vulnerable fighter and he takes 10, well guess what? Stop shooting it. Get up there and Heal check your defender. Ready an action for when the fighter shifts away so you can shoot the bugger without spraying your buddy. The ways around it are vast.

 

[Mengu]

Heh, I threw it at a first level party. 4 dead, 1 ran off, dragon not even bloodied. The 1-2 punch with good initiative using shroud and action point breath was brutal. Hit 3 of the 4 characters (barbarian had lucky initiative and got out of breath formation), rolled well on damage, and after taking the ongoing 10 damage they would all have gone down, if it weren't for the druid who spent two standard actions with an action point (he was the one that got missed by the breath) to remove the shroud from 2 of the people (luckily his initiative was before the others). But the party just didn't have enough resources to come back from that, despite the barbarian critting with his daily. Those tail slaps are nasty, took the bard down on his own turn. When the breath recharged a second time, it was game over. Party composition was Dwarf Fighter, Goliath Barbarian, Tiefling Warlock (who never got an action), Half-elf Bard, and Human Druid. The Druid was never able to attack anything, spending his turns healing people, and in the end ran off when there wasn't anybody alive to heal.

I'll run it through a second level party, see if they fair any better. Some magic items like dwarven armor, and those second level utilities should help bounce back from the initial onslaught.

On a less related side note, if you're trying to win this fight with 1st level PC's, take Moment of Glory cleric with Healer's Mercy, and you have a good shot.

 

[Aegeri]

I never use solos in my games now until level 3. I just don't like the swing factor in low level solos, but after level 3 I feel PCs have enough juice to make solo fights more fun.

I am utterly not surprised it completely mauled your level 1 party brutally.

 

[hennebeck]

The only thing I'm upset about with the New Black Dragon is that it has no Fear effect.
Shouldn't the Shroud have the Fear Keyword to throw a bone to those that have Fear resistance?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Dragons must have a fear effect - that's just how it is!

Think I'll just have to add Frightfull Presense....

 

[Aegeri]

Dragons must have a fear effect - that's just how it is!

Think I'll just have to add Frightfull Presense....

The beautiful thing is when monsters in 4E is I think adding powers and similar is actually pretty encouraged. I would however be careful of that in this case. The reason for that is because it has really strong action economy, so it is a close fight and even a turn or so where it has free reign will be absolutely devastating. Personally I would look at another similar fear effect, like a penalty to attacks.