Redone Black Dragon from GenCon

[Klaus]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Acid Blood is the "lurker" ability.

Every time the dragon gets damaged, PCs around it get damaged. So the PCs will either suck up the damage or try to attack the dragon from a distance, which in turns leads to the dragon being free from Opportunity Attacks if/when it tries to move around and use its Stealth.

 

[Aegeri]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Acid Blood is the "lurker" ability.

Every time the dragon gets damaged, PCs around it get damaged. So the PCs will either suck up the damage or try to attack the dragon from a distance, which in turns leads to the dragon being free from Opportunity Attacks if/when it tries to move around and use its Stealth.

Yeah, that's exactly what that power accomplishes. It forces PCs to spread out and naturally generates breathing room. It also lets the dragon move elsewhere and get to the controller or another character. Slow and immobilize are very important effects against this monster as a result.

 

[keterys]

I'm very curious to see what the balance point is on other solos and/or dragons, now. Used to be a black dragon was a possible, though difficult, fight for a level 1 party (DDXP introduction and all) and in general a level 3 party can take a level 4 solo without any fear of dying but a real expenditure of resources. A level 4 party on a level 4 solo is basically an easy fight, as any n=level fight generally is.

Now it sounds like a level 4 party on a level 4 solo is a serious expenditure of resources and possible death, especially if the terrain favors the solo (move him from Planet Beachball to a Swamp with lots of water it can dive down into, etc). That hasn't felt like the case on most level 4 parties on level 4 non-solos, has it? (Except for crazy jackalwere shennanigans, but let's move past that)

Hmmhmm, now to figure out when I can next have my guys fight a black dragon

P.S. Please don't add Frightful Presence back. Add a Fear tag to Gloom if you must, assume that it doesn't get a fear effect yet from being Young if you can, or just be content with the amount of _actual_ fear it generates

 

[Aegeri]

I'm very curious to see what the balance point is on other solos and/or dragons, now. Used to be a black dragon was a possible, though difficult, fight for a level 1 party (DDXP introduction and all) and in general a level 3 party can take a level 4 solo without any fear of dying but a real expenditure of resources. A level 4 party on a level 4 solo is basically an easy fight, as any n=level fight generally is.

Yeah it doesn't really work like this now.

In fact most interestingly is that it doesn't work like this at paragon and epic now especially. I've routinely challenged and beat the utter nonsense out of PCs with even level, to EL + 2 solos at high paragon/epic. Of course I design pretty complicated and brutal solos, but even the MM3 and Demonomicon solos (those from Tomb of Horrors too) are pretty brutal. When they get a roll PCs don't just get a few cat scratches now, someone gets hurt! You could almost swear this whole "adventuring" thing is actually a dangerous profession.

 

[keterys]

Right, but is that just a thing about solos (they're effectively mis-leveled in terms of threat level) or about other types of fight as well - ie, you see the same results from 5 standards of equal level or 2 elites and a standard, etc. (I'll exclude any comparison that includes minions, since I'm sure they break things)

As long as it's consistent and not just a solo thing, I mean...

Good discussion by Greg about solos not being alone, and generally making them level +2 to level +4 fights

 

[Aegeri]

As long as it's consistent and not just a solo thing, I mean...

Oh of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My IRL game has killed 2 PCs thus far, both in EL + 3 encounters. Oddly, neither encounter had the PCs particularly pressed on resources at the start. But even outside of that, where I think some bad luck and poor tactical choices contributed most to those deaths my paragon/epic games are seeing this.

I have been pounding PCs in my paragon/epic games with EL0, EL+1 and EL+2 encounters. In fact to make a challenging encounter I rarely make one over EL+3 anymore - it simply isn't required.

 

[Mengu]

The dragon TPK'ed the level 2 party also, though this time he was down to 20 HP's when he took down the last character. Some interesting points, the warlock killed the Fighter and the Bard by hitting the dragon while it was bloodied. The dragon's shroud recharged like twice. That was bad. Druid's Summoned Pack Wolf killed itself by taking damage from the tail on a miss on its first attack, and hitting the bloodied dragon while shrouded on its second attack.

I've thrown level 4 challenges at level 2 parties, and they usually do just fine, not even a single death, let alone TPK. This is a little too powerful.

After these tests, I'll have to concede Acidic Blood is too potent as written. Maybe it could be more appropriate at a higher level.

Shroud of Gloom should probably be an encounter power, and not on a recharge. I realized I completely forgot to take into account the -2 penalty from the shroud, and was just using the vulnerability. Failing those DC 10 heal checks is the biggest waste of action, perhaps there should not be a DC. recharge and DC 10 heal check is killer on action economy.

One other thing that doesn't sit too well with me is that without a leader, it's near impossible to recover from the initial damage the dragon does with the breath and ongoing damage. But I guess that goes in the territory of DM adjusting encounters based on party composition.

 

[Herschel]

I have to agree, btw, that it complicates the game without providing signficiant value that you can't take immediates and opportunity abilities on your own turn. Pretty much the -only- advantage this gains is that it gives tactically minded players a way to bypass powerful opportunity actions posessed by enemies -- but that's also a major disadvantage, as if can frequently trivialize such abilities.

Another advantage would be crazy combos like a Barbarian with Thunderhooves Rage going, Curtain of Steel and Avalanche Strike: move in to opponent's square, take opportunity attack, Curtain of Steel for 3[W] damage, step back out completeing move and get an extra [W] damage on that attack. Add in the likelyhood of a nearby defender with a mark on the baddy and it gets pretty ridiculous and makes a baddie unable to be able to choose to make a defensible action with any sanity.

 

[keterys]

Do that exact sequence, except put the curtain of steel a second later after the barbarian's turn, and you've already got the situation as it stands

 

[Aegeri]

One other thing that doesn't sit too well with me is that without a leader, it's near impossible to recover from the initial damage the dragon does with the breath and ongoing damage.

This isn't particularly uncommon actually. In any low level solo fight, if the solo gets the first around and does enough damage to a group without a leader they are doomed. Ironically, a leaderless party is probably better off in heroic than paragon/epic. A leaderless party in epic is slaughtered like lambs to an open roast BBQ, because surgeless healing was nerfed so comprehensively and damage of monsters (and their action economy) was increased so drastically.

Looking at the dragon, I think the biggest problem is the acidic blood power should actually only be 2 damage. Usually such powers (IIRC) scale 2/5/7 or so. I would need to check one of my books, but that does look a little too high.