Redskins: an improper name... now what?

[Crothian]

Vig has showed the dictionary definitions. People with actual Native heritage have brought up their points of view, which, not to put too fine a point on it, sort of outrank yours as far as getting to decide whether a given term is offensive. If you can't see it, that's on you.

Ya, that is very common. I'm not allowed to have opinions or mine don't count as much because I'm not in a certain group.

I can see that the term is offensive, I'm not doubting that.

 

[Vigilance]

No one is defending its use as an insult. I see the word having two meanings like many words do.

Right but there's no other definition of the word.

The definition is "a disparaging word for a Native American".

You then ADDED to the dictionary (which doesn't really affect the defintion) "the Washington football team".

So the washington football team takes a word that was never anything but an insult as it's team moniker, and then we fast forward 30 years, and it's magically ok, bucause now it has a lot of football tradition behind it.

That's basically what you're saying.

 

[takyris]

Ya, that is very common. I'm not allowed to have opinions or mine don't count as much because I'm not in a certain group.

Your skin color doesn't preclude you from having a valid opinion. Your ignorance does. Yes, if you want to feel persecuted and you need somebody to say it to your face: because you are ignorant of the culture, I believe that your opinion of this culturally specific matter counts less than other people's.

Much like, say, I consider the opinions of a non-gamer without any gaming knowledge less valid than the opinions of a gamer or someone who has studied gamers when the question of "Do roleplaying games lead to real-life violence?" comes up.

If you're ignorant about the subject matter, your opinion on the subject matter carries less weight. That doesn't mean you're a horrible person. That doesn't mean I think less of you overall. There are many many many areas in which I am completely ignorant. If I do debate matters in that area, I try not to assume that my arguments are going to have equal weight. Because, you know, I'm ignorant in those areas.

I can see that the term is offensive, I'm not doubting that.

Really? You just said that the term had lost its meaning. People who know more than you do about the subject matter have corrected you. You also said that you think it's a term with two meanings, only one of which is offensive, despite the fact that the one you classify as non-offensive is descended from the offensive one.

Call me crazy, but even if I'd grown up knowing of a football team called "The N___'s", if a bunch of African-American people came forward and said, "We find that term offensive," my response wouldn't be, "But it's just a football-team name! They're not using it in an offensive way!" And I say that despite never having heard the N-word used in real-life (not counting the Klan members on Springer). The fact that I don't live in an area with a lot of racism against blacks doesn't preclude me from understanding that a given term might be offensive, even if it's been turned into the name of a football team.

But maybe I'm just crazy-PC.

 

[Crothian]

Right but there's no other definition of the word.

A raven is a bird. It is also the name of the Baltimore football team. No dictionary I know of lists it as the Baltimore football team. The football team is obviously not a group of birds, so there are defintions for words especially proper nouns that are not in the dictionary. That's what I'm getting at.

If the word Redskin had the added meaning in a dictionary of "the name of the Washinton DC football team" would it make a difference to you?

 

[Crothian]

Your skin color doesn't preclude you from having a valid opinion. Your ignorance does. Yes, if you want to feel persecuted and you need somebody to say it to your face: because you are ignorant of the culture, I believe that your opinion of this culturally specific matter counts less than other people's.

My opinion means I am ignorant of the culture? There is no way someone could have the opinion and not be ignorant?

Really? You just said that the term had lost its meaning. People who know more than you do about the subject matter have corrected you. You also said that you think it's a term with two meanings, only one of which is offensive, despite the fact that the one you classify as non-offensive is descended from the offensive one.

I said it had lost its meaning to me, not to everyone. That is hardly the case as this thread proves. Word meanings over time to alter even hateful words.

 

[takyris]

My opinion means I am ignorant of the culture? There is no way someone could have the opinion and not be ignorant?

No. Your ignorance of the culture means that you are ignorant of the culture. Mind you, I'm just judging your knowledge or ignorance of the culture based on what you write. I don't have anything else to go by. If you'd like to write something that demonstrates that you are not ignorant of the culture, you are more than welcome to do so.

I love your Socratic approach in which I'm eventually supposed to be bound up in a giant rhetorical tangle, unable to conclusively prove that you're ignorant, and therefore unable to say that your opinion has any less weight than anyone else's. However, you are ignorant in this matter, unless you've been holding some good information back -- information a bit more conclusive than "I have lots of Indian friends, and they've never had that racial slur used on them."

If you have no additional knowledge you haven't shared, then you're ignorant in the matter, and your opinion does weigh less.

If you do have additional knowledge you haven't shared, then you're evidently just being coy, in which case... why?

Vig is Native American. I'm married to a Cheyenne woman whose Cheyenne father runs a nonprofit organization that works with Native American kids. I've been on multiple reservations. I've written papers about the Pine Ridge massacre and the Alcatraz occupation. I got VIP seats at the opening of the National Museum of the American Indian, whose president is my wife's uncle. I was at the last four Cheyenne Sundances, and served as my father-in-law's catcher at one of them. I've had late-night talks with my father-in-law about the racism he's experienced, and the radical difference in perception that occured when he opted to grow out his hair and "look more Indian".

You're welcome to have that opinion -- everyone is entitled to have an opinion -- but all opinions are not created equal. Some of them have more weight because the person holding that opinion has some knowledge of the subject matter.

So... yes. I do know more than you do. Vig knows more than you do. Your attempt to act persecuted because your ignorant opinion doesn't carry equal weight is ridiculous.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A raven is a bird. It is also the name of the Baltimore football team. No dictionary I know of lists it as the Baltimore football team. The football team is obviously not a group of birds, so there are defintions for words especially proper nouns that are not in the dictionary. That's what I'm getting at.

True, but the latter definition is derivative of and referential to the dictionary definition of "a kind of bird." By naming the team thusly, they are trying to relate themselves to it in some way. They are trying to associate themselves with the facts about the bird, or its imagery and legends surrounding the bird in an effort to say something about themselves.

In the particular case of the Ravens, that relation has to do with the classic Poe piece and the writer's connecion to Baltimore. Thus the name is about civic pride in one of the city's greatest citizens.

In the case of the Redskins, one must ask what are they trying to relate themselves to? The only place they can point is to the racially charged term for Native Americans. Are they trying to associate themselves with the hateful attitudes of the early settlers? Or the soldiers who hunted Native Americans for sport and bounties? Perhaps they're referring to a hated foe?

Where is the good? What is the team trying to say about itself?

 

[Crothian]

If you do have additional knowledge you haven't shared, then you're evidently just being coy, in which case... why?

Because I have nothing I feel I need to prove to you. As I keep saying in the thread I'm not attached to it for or against.

So... yes. I do know more than you do. Vig knows more than you do. Your attempt to act persecuted because your ignorant opinion doesn't carry equal weight is ridiculous.

This isn't me acting persecuted. This is me being insulted now. I was trying to ask questions, present the way I see things and try to understand how things were for other people. I'm sorry that was not able to happen here.

 

[Crothian]

Where is the good? What is the team trying to say about itself?

That is a very good question. I tried to google some insight on why the name was choosen but was not able to find anything.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Vigilance, this thread seems to have diverged quite a long way from your original hopes for it.

Do you want it kept open, or should it be closed now? If you'd like it closed, just report this post and we'll do it for you.

It was an interesting question (I'm British, and so pretty ignorant of much of the issues which have been raised here - I'm grateful for the education, personally).

Cheers