Reducing Options to Increase Fun

Rules for jumping all available ditches seem a bit borderline; but at least some way short of rules for milking goats and eating yoghurt.

On the other hand, if you're playing a game that is about goatherding, you're going to want the rules for it to be "full-featured" enough to provide interesting variety.

It's less about the quantity of rules, period, and more about the quantity of rules that your game doesn't have much of a use for. Detailed rules for goatherding in heroic fantasy probably wouldn't be that useful.
 

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IronWolf said:
I think over the course of a few sessions (possibly more depending on how many skill checks the players are exposed to in these sessions) that a player will get a feel for what their character is capable of. Some DMs will go more with the, that sounds really cool, here's a reasonable DC to accomplish it. Other DMs are going to want a less flashy feel to their game and if the player asks to do something cool or outrageous will be more likely to either say no, not possible or set a really high DC to practically guarantee failure. The players will learn which type of DM they have during the first few sessions with a DM.

The problem I have with this approach is that it leads to gaming the GM. I know Bob, so, I will pick a particular kind of character, whereas with Suzie, I'd never try it because I know how she will react.

I think, at the end of the day, this leads to poorer games.
 

Detailed rules for goatherding in heroic fantasy probably wouldn't be that useful.
Unless you're playing in Earthsea!

I'm joking, but the first RM character built for my first RM game (by my brother) was heavily modelled on Ged, and he certainly liked that he could pick Animal Herding (goats) as one of his skills. (Because of the way character build and siloing work in RM, this sort of thing doesn't purge a PC in RM in the way that it can tend to in 3E or (I suspect) HERO.)
 

I think, at the end of the day, this leads to poorer games.
I agree, and I say this as someone who - unlike you - has had most of his RPGing for the past 20 years consist of GMing the same ten or so people in various combinations.

I like the rules to deliver the answers to action resolution questions because it reduces one of the burdens of being a GM (and it's not as if GMs don't have to bear plenty of other burdens!).

That's not to say that I think RPGs have to go all simulationist to do this. You can have perfectly consitent ditch-jumping rules in a narrativist ruleset (eg by using Robin Laws's pass/fail cycle to set DCs).

Where gaming the GM is inevitable, I suspect, certainly when you play with the same people for years and years and even when you come into a new group, is in thematic/genere/trope choices. My players can be pretty certain that my games will involve ancient empires, scheming gods, mad cults and moral quandries, both from experience and because they know more generally what my tastes in history, philosophy and theology are. So they know that if they build PCs with links to gods or to political power structures they will almost certainly get an easier way in to the themes of the campaign.

The solution for this sort of thing is (I think) communication. I always talk to my players about what sort of setting, themes, tropes etc we want to emphasise in a new campaign. The thing is, I'd much rather talk about this sort of stuff - which is often inherently interesting for fantasy fans - than about how I'll resolve ditch-jumping in the absence of a robust action-resolution ruleset.
 

Unless you're playing in Earthsea!

I'm joking, but the first RM character built for my first RM game (by my brother) was heavily modelled on Ged, and he certainly liked that he could pick Animal Herding (goats) as one of his skills. (Because of the way character build and siloing work in RM, this sort of thing doesn't purge a PC in RM in the way that it can tend to in 3E or (I suspect) HERO.)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjSjB-3xPVM&feature=related"]YouTube - The Muppet Show - Julie Andrews[/ame]
 

Hussar said:
The problem I have with this approach is that it leads to gaming the GM. I know Bob, so, I will pick a particular kind of character, whereas with Suzie, I'd never try it because I know how she will react.

I think, at the end of the day, this leads to poorer games.

There is a touch of this in a myriad of ways though above and beyond just skill checks. DM styles vary from table to table and DM to DM. It is the subjective feel of the game, if one wants machine like consistency or feel they may be better served by a computer-based RPG.

We were talking skills and ditch-jumping ability. But what if Bob DMs a dark, gritty and low-magic game versus Suzie who DMs a much less gritty and higher magic game. These DM styles will certainly affect what type of character one might choose depending on DM if these players have played with them before.

So I think DM styles are going to be different just by nature of the game. DMs are unique individuals that will bring their own nuances to the table. Players will learn these and likely adapt their character creation slightly to best fit with the style of the DM. Yes, this is meta-gamey, but I think it is unavoidable as long as a human runs the game. I don't think this detracts from the game by any means or leads to a poorer game.

pemerton said:
I like the rules to deliver the answers to action resolution questions because it reduces one of the burdens of being a GM (and it's not as if GMs don't have to bear plenty of other burdens!).

That's not to say that I think RPGs have to go all simulationist to do this. You can have perfectly consitent ditch-jumping rules in a narrativist ruleset (eg by using Robin Laws's pass/fail cycle to set DCs).

I see the rules as providing the basis of resolving actions. I don't think the rules can cover every possible ditch (trying to stick to one of the earlier examples) and what the exact DC to jump it is, there are just too many variables and we'd end up with a whole page in the rules soley on various DCs to jump a ditch depending on the type of ditch. The rules can provide what a DC would be for what one would consider and easy jump, a more average jump or a downright difficult jump (with snapping alligators at the bottom! ;) ) Then the DM can work within this established framework to assign an appropriate DC for this appropriate ditch.

I think our difference of opinion likely stems from me feeling that the ruleset has provided me a more than adequate framework to work from whereas others think it is not clear cut enough or concrete enough.

pemerton said:
The solution for this sort of thing is (I think) communication. I always talk to my players about what sort of setting, themes, tropes etc we want to emphasise in a new campaign. The thing is, I'd much rather talk about this sort of stuff - which is often inherently interesting for fantasy fans - than about how I'll resolve ditch-jumping in the absence of a robust action-resolution ruleset.

I absolutely agree that communication is important. DMs are going to have their own nuances to any game regardless of how vague or defining the ruleset is. So the easiest way to put everyone on the same battlemat is to talk about the game before it gets started. Get input from what the players want, etc. Communication is key.

I agree that talking before hand on how one is going to resolve ditch-jumping is less than interesting. But a DM can easily say that he is going to run with a heroic feel (i.e. he likely wants to see you succeed and come up with heroic acts) or a gritty feel. That should help give the players a general feel for such things. If it is still unclear, ask the DM directly. As you said, communication between the DM and players is very important.
 

I think I made a mistake in the subject of this thread in that I should have said "rules and options" instead of just "options" because I was thinking rules = options (which may not be intuitive to others).
It's not intuitive at all. They mean completely different things. There seems to be a disconnect here about the different terms. How can there be a debate about a subject when everyone seems to use a different set of meanings on what the subject is actually about.

Rules are, at the same time, options and restrictions. They are options in that they give suggestions for the players and their characters on possible methods of interacting with the environment they are in. They are restrictions in that they give suggestions on how hard those things are to accomplish, and how far they can realistically bend (realistically according to the setting), and how possible it might be for the characters to actually redefine them or outright break the perceived limits.

Rules should never be requirements, and always guidelines.

I've always favored games that cover as much as possible from the get go. Games that are very open with less options tend to be games that are heavily house ruled.
You are confusing the terms. Games that are very open have the most options. They also have the least rules, and therefore the least suggestions on what is possible. An open game is therefore about how inventive the players are in making those suggestions themselves. Idea rich group in an open game equals a ton of options. Idea poor group... nothing much happens. This is certainly not to say that some groups are better at playing a game than others, just that different styles suit different groups better. What you are saying is that you prefer games with a ton of suggestions.

Groups who heavily houserule base their game on a set rules that doesn't suit them. Doesn't matter how little or much there are of them.

Problem with that is not everyone house rules the same so when you go to conventions, play outside your group, etc..., all the gamers aren't using all the same rules.
That's why they are called houserules. That is a self-created problem. If you heavily houserule a game, then you are no longer playing that game, but rather one you've invented. Why would there be an expectation that others would be playing that as well?

But, I think DannyA is right. D&D has often tried to be "full featured" ... "How hard is it to jump over a ditch" is something most players want to know the answer to without having to ask ... Most players want to know their basic capabilities because it affects how they play their characters. It's pretty hard to be a swashbuckling swordsman swinging from the chandelier when I have no idea how difficult that is.
But knowing how hard jumping over a ditch actually is is not realistic. You never definitively know. Unless you've lived there. Unless you've jumped across it a number of times. Unless you've done it with gear similar to what you have. Unless you know how weather has affected it's structure. Unless you know how the terraing usually behaves. Unless you have a home field advantage.

Being fully featured is in itself unrealistic. We have no idea what the rules are for the real world. We may never know. All we have is guidelines. Things we know up to a point. Trying to make game mechanics that describe an action as realistic as possible is pointless anyway, because there is no reason why the characters should ever know them that well. Unless it's someone who's dedicated his life to knowing that particular thing. Like an athlete. But you know what? Even then there's no reason for the character to definitively know. Nobody knows things that well.

Consider: genre and style exist by limiting options. The differences between space opera and cyberpunk, between high and low fantasy, are in restrictions and boundaries.
This, to me, is the only mandatory purpose of a rules system. And when you think about it, this is fluff. This is the setting. So the "core" rules have always been nothing but guidelines to me. A safety net to fall back on when you need one. Suggestions on how to handle the mechanics of situations.

Suggestions are options. Rules are ways to handle those options. And as such, also options. But mostly restrictions in that they restrict other methods of handling those options. Confused yet? Good.

Welcome to the uncertainty of real characters. This is the battleground of freedom vs safety. Follow the rules or make your own. :cool:
 

I think over the course of a few sessions (possibly more depending on how many skill checks the players are exposed to in these sessions) that a player will get a feel for what their character is capable of. Some DMs will go more with the, that sounds really cool, here's a reasonable DC to accomplish it. Other DMs are going to want a less flashy feel to their game and if the player asks to do something cool or outrageous will be more likely to either say no, not possible or set a really high DC to practically guarantee failure. The players will learn which type of DM they have during the first few sessions with a DM.
The problem I have with this approach is that it leads to gaming the GM. I know Bob, so, I will pick a particular kind of character, whereas with Suzie, I'd never try it because I know how she will react.

I think, at the end of the day, this leads to poorer games.

Yes & no- it depends upon how metagamey we're talking.

For instance, generally speaking, most people would call me a fool if I designed a PC concentrating on fighting undead (with Turning, etc.) when the GM in question was known to have a serious hate on for undead and never used them, even going so far as to excise them from published settings in which they played a central role.

Or in a more realistic example, in my current group, for most of the GMs' campaigns, I will absolutely do my best to avoid playing PCs w/pets. Why? Because they end up dead, end of story. My Wizards don't need that Con hit; my Paladins don't need to invest in all those mounted combat feats they'll hardly ever use, etc. Summoned creatures are fine- they have a preset finite duration, but almost nothing with a sidekick as a class feature will be played by yours truly for their campaigns.
 

But knowing how hard jumping over a ditch actually is is not realistic. You never definitively know.

C'mon.

Most people know their physical limitations. I know that when I was 22, I was 5'7", 193lbs, could bench 300lbs, do 3 sets of 10 leg presses at 700lbs, could do a standing leap of 10', and could jump high enough to touch the iron (not dunking) of a standard basketball goal. And so forth.

Now, I'm in my early 40s and still 5'7"...but I weigh considerably more, and I know I can't do anything like those feats at this time. Maybe with some more gym time and less Internet? (And less ice cream.)

So I could definitely see that an adventurer would have at least some idea of how easy or difficult it may be to jump a particular gap...assuming there were no unseen hazards like a crumbling lip on the other side, or a hamstring pull that happened 2 minutes ago.

And I like it when rulesets give the players a chance to think of their PCs in the same way as they think about themselves. I like it even more when the only skills that improve are the ones you actually use.
 

...So I could definitely see that an adventurer would have at least some idea of how easy or difficult it may be to jump a particular gap...
My point was that 'some idea' is not the same as knowing the exact mechanics and percentile chances of something.

And I like it when rulesets give the players a chance to think of their PCs in the same way as they think about themselves.
If the physics of the world have been described as behaving in a roughly similar manner to real world physics, then the rules do not need to be that perfect for those assumptions to exist.

If the physics are different, it's more about the fluff. How does this world differ from ours?

And here I thought the game was supposed to be about your imagination, and not an ability to perfect abilities to millimeter precision.
 

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