Asmor
First Post
Long story short: a month ago I played a kobold barbarian using the playtest rules. Last night, I played an elven avenger and a new player took over my barbarian. Thus I've had the chance to play both and, perhaps more importantly, actually get to see both played side by side.
First, here are my builds.
[sblock=Barbarian]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Rakk-Nakk, level 10
Kobold, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 18, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.
AC: 21 Fort: 24 Reflex: 19 Will: 17
HP: 92 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 24
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics, Perception, Intimidate.
FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer)
2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
4: Toughness
6: Improved Rageblood Vigor
8: Improved Initiative
10: Fast Runner
POWERS
1, At-Will: Howling Strike
1, At-Will: Pressing Strike
1, Encounter: Avalanche Strike
1, Daily: Bloodhunt Rage
2, Utility: Combat Sprint
3, Encounter: Blood Strike
5, Daily: Frost Wolf Rage
6, Utility: Instinctive Charge
7, Encounter: Curtain of Steel
9, Daily: Black Dragon Rage
10, Utility: Wellspring of Renewal
ITEMS
Battering Craghammer +3, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Distance Throwing hammer +1, Eagle Eye Goggles (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Laughing Death Leather Armor +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======[/sblock]
The kobold barbarian was focused on damage (ignoring the fact, of course, that kobold is a suboptimal choice for such a build), with a minor emphasis on charing. Please note that this isn't the exact build which was played; I'd updated this after the PHB2 came out, but the original build was the one being played and I don't have a copy of it. Sorry.
The barbarian had a +15 to attack and dealt 1d10+11 damage with a basic attack (worth noting that, since the craghammer is brutal 2, 1[W] for him is actually equivalent to 1d8+2, so he does significantly more damage than you might otherwise expect as you increase the number of dice).
[sblock=Avenger build]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Sa'shana, level 10
Elf, Avenger
Build: Pursuing Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Birth - Among Another Race: Among Another Race (Drow)
Background: Birth - Among Another Race
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 8.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
AC: 23 Fort: 20 Reflex: 21 Will: 24
HP: 82 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth.
FEATS
1: Elven Precision
2: Wild Elf Luck
4: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
8: Melee Training (Wisdom)
10: Ritual Caster
POWERS
1, At-Will: Bond of Pursuit
1, At-Will: Overwhelming Strike
1, Encounter: Angelic Alacrity
1, Daily: Aspect of Might
2, Utility: Distracting Flare
3, Encounter: Sequestering Strike
5, Daily: Living Death Strike
6, Utility: Aspect of Agility
7, Encounter: Inexorable Pursuit
9, Daily: Temple of Shadow
10, Utility: Avenger's Readiness
ITEMS
Sacrificial Fullblade +3, Bloodthread Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Amulet of False Life +2, Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Couters of Second Chances (heroic tier), Boots of Stealth (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Rope, Silk (50 ft.), Climber's Kit, Sanctified Incense (Religion) (400), Ritual Book
RITUALS
Discern Lies, Last Sight Vision, Hand of Fate, Speak with Dead, Raise Dead
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======[/sblock]
The elven avenger was focused on mobility and hitting. His basic attacks dealt 1d12+9.
Ok, so now to get down to the observations.
Damage
First, it seemed like the barbarian dealt significantly more damage than the avenger. I was expecting it to have an edge, but I wasn't expecting that much of an edge. The craghammer's "1d8+2" is equivalent to the fullblade's 1d12, both averaging 6.5 damage, and the barbarian had an extra 2 points of base damage. The avenger actually has a slight edge on dailies as far as sheer damage dice go, thanks to living death strike, but frostwolf rage and bloodhunt rage both add a lot of damage over the course of a fight. The avenger's censure only came into play once over the course of the three fights of the night.
Looking at it again objectively, I still don't think the barbarian should have been doing as much more as he seemed to be doing. I think perhaps I was just rolling poorly last night and he was rolling well. But he does have at least a slight edge. Since he was built to focus on damage and was somewhat gimped by his choice of race, I consider that a success.
Hitting
The avenger did not miss a single attack roll all night. Not one. I only even used the elven accuracy power (with its +1d4+2 bonus) once, and that was because I'd "only" rolled a 28 or so against a dragon and I wanted to make sure my living death strike hit.
The barbarian missed several attacks. I was able to save him once with my channel divinity power, but I think any advantage he had in the sheer damage category was completely obliterated by the fact that the avenger always hit.
Since this was one of the goals of the avenger, I consider that a major success.
Mobility
There was simply no way to stop the avenger. Well, that's not true; immobilization would work well (and would be really bad since he completely lacks any ranged attack-- the barb at least has a throwing hammer). But a couple times the avenger was slowed and it did nothing to actually slow him down. He's got four powers which allow him to shift multiple squares (bond of pursuit, aspect of agility, angelic alacrity, and inexorable pursuit) regardless of his speed, and distracting flare is also available if you're not slowed and is great for getting into flanking positions or engaging someone who's surrounded by baddies.
I definitely consider this a success.
The barbarian on the other hand had a huge range, but was very susceptible to being slowed, immobilized, dazed or stunned. In particular, the first time I played him he spent a great deal of the game stunned, which was very frustrating because not only could I not make a saving throw to... err... save my life, if you'll pardon the expression, but since I was stunned I couldn't activate the periapt which would break me out immediately. That said, he could shift as a minor action, move 6 squares, and then charge 8 squares (with a howling strike, no less), giving him an effective range of 15 squares when not hindered, or 19 squares if he didn't mind running and then charging. Combined with a very good athletics check to clear obstacles, if you were on the map he could probably get to you.
All that said, he really didn't get many opportunities to charge, which kind of saddened me. I had envisioned the character being kind of like a pinball charging back and forth among the enemies like they were the bumpers (using howling strike to avoid attacks of opportunity), but the enemies were always too tightly grouped for that to be a viable strategy.
In that respect, I don't really consider the barbarian to have achieved this goal.
Survivability
Despite only having slightly fewer hit points, having better defenses, and having the amulet of false life, the avenger felt significantly more fragile than the barbarian. I'm not sure if that's a psychological thing, an actual thing, or just the effect of the night's luck, but there ya go.
Closing thoughts
I think it's easy to overlook the virtual damage bonus which the avenger's vastly increased accuracy grants, and I think that's a mistake. It's not as exciting playing one, since you don't do a lot of damage at once (at least, not with my build), but if you look at it empirically the avenger does do a lot of damage just by virtue of always hitting.
If you want to talk about "feat taxes", I think the avenger's got a really bad case of it. First, if you're playing avenger, you basically need melee training (wisdom). You're going to be in the thick of combat a lot, and when someone provokes an OA you want to be able to back up your threat. Next, since they emphasize wielding big, scary weapons chances are you'll probably want to take training in a superior weapon. Third, weapon expertise. 'Nuff said. As a level 10 character, that only left me with 3 feats to play with, and given his emphasis on hitting elven precision and wild elf luck were no-brainers. There was a lot of competition for the last feat from both mechanical and flavor standpoints (improved armor of faith, leather armor training, skill training athletics, skill training thievery, improved initiative, weapon focus), but I ended up going with ritual caster because I liked what it added to the character conceptually.
I don't really have much to say about the barbarian. It's a fairly shallow class, which I don't mean as an insult, but just to say that there's not a lot of hidden subtleties or nuance.
First, here are my builds.
[sblock=Barbarian]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Rakk-Nakk, level 10
Kobold, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 18, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.
AC: 21 Fort: 24 Reflex: 19 Will: 17
HP: 92 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 24
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics, Perception, Intimidate.
FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer)
2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
4: Toughness
6: Improved Rageblood Vigor
8: Improved Initiative
10: Fast Runner
POWERS
1, At-Will: Howling Strike
1, At-Will: Pressing Strike
1, Encounter: Avalanche Strike
1, Daily: Bloodhunt Rage
2, Utility: Combat Sprint
3, Encounter: Blood Strike
5, Daily: Frost Wolf Rage
6, Utility: Instinctive Charge
7, Encounter: Curtain of Steel
9, Daily: Black Dragon Rage
10, Utility: Wellspring of Renewal
ITEMS
Battering Craghammer +3, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Distance Throwing hammer +1, Eagle Eye Goggles (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Laughing Death Leather Armor +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======[/sblock]
The kobold barbarian was focused on damage (ignoring the fact, of course, that kobold is a suboptimal choice for such a build), with a minor emphasis on charing. Please note that this isn't the exact build which was played; I'd updated this after the PHB2 came out, but the original build was the one being played and I don't have a copy of it. Sorry.
The barbarian had a +15 to attack and dealt 1d10+11 damage with a basic attack (worth noting that, since the craghammer is brutal 2, 1[W] for him is actually equivalent to 1d8+2, so he does significantly more damage than you might otherwise expect as you increase the number of dice).
[sblock=Avenger build]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Sa'shana, level 10
Elf, Avenger
Build: Pursuing Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Birth - Among Another Race: Among Another Race (Drow)
Background: Birth - Among Another Race
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 8.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
AC: 23 Fort: 20 Reflex: 21 Will: 24
HP: 82 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth.
FEATS
1: Elven Precision
2: Wild Elf Luck
4: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
6: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
8: Melee Training (Wisdom)
10: Ritual Caster
POWERS
1, At-Will: Bond of Pursuit
1, At-Will: Overwhelming Strike
1, Encounter: Angelic Alacrity
1, Daily: Aspect of Might
2, Utility: Distracting Flare
3, Encounter: Sequestering Strike
5, Daily: Living Death Strike
6, Utility: Aspect of Agility
7, Encounter: Inexorable Pursuit
9, Daily: Temple of Shadow
10, Utility: Avenger's Readiness
ITEMS
Sacrificial Fullblade +3, Bloodthread Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Amulet of False Life +2, Headband of Perception (heroic tier), Couters of Second Chances (heroic tier), Boots of Stealth (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Rope, Silk (50 ft.), Climber's Kit, Sanctified Incense (Religion) (400), Ritual Book
RITUALS
Discern Lies, Last Sight Vision, Hand of Fate, Speak with Dead, Raise Dead
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======[/sblock]
The elven avenger was focused on mobility and hitting. His basic attacks dealt 1d12+9.
Ok, so now to get down to the observations.
Damage
First, it seemed like the barbarian dealt significantly more damage than the avenger. I was expecting it to have an edge, but I wasn't expecting that much of an edge. The craghammer's "1d8+2" is equivalent to the fullblade's 1d12, both averaging 6.5 damage, and the barbarian had an extra 2 points of base damage. The avenger actually has a slight edge on dailies as far as sheer damage dice go, thanks to living death strike, but frostwolf rage and bloodhunt rage both add a lot of damage over the course of a fight. The avenger's censure only came into play once over the course of the three fights of the night.
Looking at it again objectively, I still don't think the barbarian should have been doing as much more as he seemed to be doing. I think perhaps I was just rolling poorly last night and he was rolling well. But he does have at least a slight edge. Since he was built to focus on damage and was somewhat gimped by his choice of race, I consider that a success.
Hitting
The avenger did not miss a single attack roll all night. Not one. I only even used the elven accuracy power (with its +1d4+2 bonus) once, and that was because I'd "only" rolled a 28 or so against a dragon and I wanted to make sure my living death strike hit.
The barbarian missed several attacks. I was able to save him once with my channel divinity power, but I think any advantage he had in the sheer damage category was completely obliterated by the fact that the avenger always hit.
Since this was one of the goals of the avenger, I consider that a major success.
Mobility
There was simply no way to stop the avenger. Well, that's not true; immobilization would work well (and would be really bad since he completely lacks any ranged attack-- the barb at least has a throwing hammer). But a couple times the avenger was slowed and it did nothing to actually slow him down. He's got four powers which allow him to shift multiple squares (bond of pursuit, aspect of agility, angelic alacrity, and inexorable pursuit) regardless of his speed, and distracting flare is also available if you're not slowed and is great for getting into flanking positions or engaging someone who's surrounded by baddies.
I definitely consider this a success.
The barbarian on the other hand had a huge range, but was very susceptible to being slowed, immobilized, dazed or stunned. In particular, the first time I played him he spent a great deal of the game stunned, which was very frustrating because not only could I not make a saving throw to... err... save my life, if you'll pardon the expression, but since I was stunned I couldn't activate the periapt which would break me out immediately. That said, he could shift as a minor action, move 6 squares, and then charge 8 squares (with a howling strike, no less), giving him an effective range of 15 squares when not hindered, or 19 squares if he didn't mind running and then charging. Combined with a very good athletics check to clear obstacles, if you were on the map he could probably get to you.
All that said, he really didn't get many opportunities to charge, which kind of saddened me. I had envisioned the character being kind of like a pinball charging back and forth among the enemies like they were the bumpers (using howling strike to avoid attacks of opportunity), but the enemies were always too tightly grouped for that to be a viable strategy.
In that respect, I don't really consider the barbarian to have achieved this goal.
Survivability
Despite only having slightly fewer hit points, having better defenses, and having the amulet of false life, the avenger felt significantly more fragile than the barbarian. I'm not sure if that's a psychological thing, an actual thing, or just the effect of the night's luck, but there ya go.
Closing thoughts
I think it's easy to overlook the virtual damage bonus which the avenger's vastly increased accuracy grants, and I think that's a mistake. It's not as exciting playing one, since you don't do a lot of damage at once (at least, not with my build), but if you look at it empirically the avenger does do a lot of damage just by virtue of always hitting.
If you want to talk about "feat taxes", I think the avenger's got a really bad case of it. First, if you're playing avenger, you basically need melee training (wisdom). You're going to be in the thick of combat a lot, and when someone provokes an OA you want to be able to back up your threat. Next, since they emphasize wielding big, scary weapons chances are you'll probably want to take training in a superior weapon. Third, weapon expertise. 'Nuff said. As a level 10 character, that only left me with 3 feats to play with, and given his emphasis on hitting elven precision and wild elf luck were no-brainers. There was a lot of competition for the last feat from both mechanical and flavor standpoints (improved armor of faith, leather armor training, skill training athletics, skill training thievery, improved initiative, weapon focus), but I ended up going with ritual caster because I liked what it added to the character conceptually.
I don't really have much to say about the barbarian. It's a fairly shallow class, which I don't mean as an insult, but just to say that there's not a lot of hidden subtleties or nuance.
Last edited by a moderator:
