Reflections on the Barbarian and Avenger

[Prestidigitalis]

Isn't it pretty easy for the Avenger's prime target (forgot the technical name) to foil the bonuses? For a Pursuing Avenger, don't run away; for the other one (forgot again), run away, or at the very least don't have the other creatures target the Avenger.

It sounds like you didn't have that problem. Could you explain a little more about why not?

 

[James McMurray]

In the three fights we had with a 4th level Avenger in the party (pursuit style), it was easy for the enemy to avoid triggering the avenger's bonus damage, but that meant standing there and getting hit by a striker who was (usually) rolling twice to attack.

The second part of their power (rolling twice when there are no other enemies around) was harder to avoid. The character was built to be very mobile, and it was rare that he didn't get the extra roll. Those times he did were often because he wasn't getting to attack his oath target at all.

While it's easy to foil either avenger's extra damage, that means you're playing into his hands. You're either not getting away from the striker, or you're not focusing your resources on him to kill him quickly.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

While it's easy to foil either avenger's extra damage, that means you're playing into his hands. You're either not getting away from the striker, or you're not focusing your resources on him to kill him quickly.

But can't the two attacks also be foiled by having a second creature stand next to the Avenger?

I know, that's turning it into a big production just to shut down the Avenger, but still -- it should come up fairly often. Seems like, at the very least, it becomes a VERY big deal that the Avenger be able to Shift easily, and especially difficult for the Avenger to get both the two-rolls advantage AND combat advantage. (Though maybe with two rolls the Avenger doesn't need CA so much...)

 

[James McMurray]

Avengers have a lot of options for mobility to let them shift, move, or otherwise get to a position where there's just one enemy next to them. It also helps to have others in the party with forced movement powers. It can be done, but it means the Avenger's position is dictating the position of several other enemies. It also means that if the avenger can't get his two rolls, the odds of the enemy being bunched together in prime AoE range is much higher.

The avenger in our game got combat advantage every so often. It was only 3 fights so I don't know if it was more or less than normal. My gut wants to say less. But as you said, if you're rolling twice combat advantage isn't as big of a deal.

 

[Krensus]

But can't the two attacks also be foiled by having a second creature stand next to the Avenger?

I know, that's turning it into a big production just to shut down the Avenger, but still -- it should come up fairly often. Seems like, at the very least, it becomes a VERY big deal that the Avenger be able to Shift easily, and especially difficult for the Avenger to get both the two-rolls advantage AND combat advantage. (Though maybe with two rolls the Avenger doesn't need CA so much...)

In my experience as a ret avenger, you really don't want to shift much. When I was swarmed around my oath target, I'd use a walk instead of shift to provoke OA's from all around me to rack up higher damage on the main target. I took strange paths to get to my oath target to provoke as much as possible, but we also had two leaders in the party and I was a dwarf and could 2nd wind as a minor, so yrmv.

I'm going to go for armor that can be used to give resist all so that doing this doesn't hurt me as much, but I really like this style of striker. Hit me all you want, you're just feeding my anger.

That said, I have to agree with the OP. Rolling twice is amazing and it's one of the main aspects of the class that I enjoy. Flanking is great, but flanking AND rolling twice is wonderful. Hitting a lot is really fun, and it allows me to take feats like Power Attack that give penalties to attack rolls, but with less of a detriment.

 

[Herschel]

But can't the two attacks also be foiled by having a second creature stand next to the Avenger?

I know, that's turning it into a big production just to shut down the Avenger, but still -- it should come up fairly often. Seems like, at the very least, it becomes a VERY big deal that the Avenger be able to Shift easily, and especially difficult for the Avenger to get both the two-rolls advantage AND combat advantage. (Though maybe with two rolls the Avenger doesn't need CA so much...)

Lining up baddies side-by-side (or nearly) also puts them in nice, cozy blast/burst patterns and makes them wonderous cleavey snacks. It's all a trade off.

 

[JBeatnik]

pardon my ignorance, but what gives the avenger two rolls?

 

[James McMurray]

Oath of Enmity. If the only enemy adjacent to the Avenger is his oath target, he gets to roll two dice for attacks and take the best one.

 

[Asmor]

Oath of Enmity. If the only enemy adjacent to the Avenger is his oath target, he gets to roll two dice for attacks and take the best one.

Well crap. I totally missed that part.

I don't think it would have affected much of my play experience. I was never in a position where it would have been difficult to arrange for that.