Reflex Save When Flatfooted?

[Aluvial]

What happens when you are forced to make a Reflex Saving Throw when you are flatfooted?

The situation is a Paladin on his Mount. The mount (and Paladin) are flatfooted at the start of combat.

A Sorcerer casts Chain Lightining at them.

He aims for the mount first, and then the paladin. 12d6 on the Mount, 11d6 on the Paladin.

The Paladin normally has a +12 Reflex save. +4 base, +3 Ability, +3 Divine Grace, +2 for Cloak of Resistance

The mount has a Reflex of +7. +5 for base??, +2 Ability

The DC for this spell is a 22.


What is the correct way to adjudicate this situation?

Aluvial

 

[Crothian]

The save is done as normal. Flatfooted just means they lose dex bonus to AC nothing else.

 

[Aluvial]

I'm only curious,

why don't you lose your Dex bonus for the save too?


If you lose your Dex bonus flatfooted that means that the ability is not used for determining Armor Class. If you lost it, wouldn't you lose all the benefits of it?

What if you are helpless? Not only do you lose your Dex bonus but you lose your Dex altogether. This applies to saves, does it not?

By the way, which saving throw do I use? The mount uses the Paladins saves, right?

Aluvial

 

[Hypersmurf]

why don't you lose your Dex bonus for the save too?

It's like how the Max Dex Bonus of armor only affects your AC, not your saves or your ranged attacks.

Wouldn't you be pretty upset if your 26 Dex Rogue got no bonus to his save against falling in the pit trap?

Reflex saves are "reactions". Dex bonus to AC is a conscious effort to avoid getting hit. It's how Uncanny Dodge works - those conscious get-out-of-the-way maneuvers have become unconscious reflex.

What if you are helpless? Not only do you lose your Dex bonus but you lose your Dex altogether. This applies to saves, does it not?

If you're helpless, you automatically fail Reflex saves, from memory. THat's very, very, different to flat-footed.

By the way, which saving throw do I use? The mount uses the Paladins saves, right?

The mount uses his base save or the paladin's base save, whichever is better.

In this case, if the mount has a base Reflex save of +5, and the paladin has +4, it uses +5... then adds Dex bonus.

The paladin uses +4... then adds Dex bonus, Divine Grace, and Cloak.

-Hyp.

 

[Aluvial]

Thanks guys!

Aluvial