Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Anders]

Stunned : a character looses Dex to AC, can't take any actions.
Reflex save = action ?

What do you think?

As far as I am concerned this is a very weird concept to grasp:

Say a Rogue gets stunned. Now, it is clear he can not dodge that battle axe whopping down on his neck, but he can dodge (instinctively) the fireball thundering down on him!?!

Is something missing here or what?

I can not find any rules concerning Reflex saves and stunning anywhere in the PHB or the DMG, but maybe you have?

 

[Joker]

I'm not sure...

but I thought that all his reflex save would fail unless on a 20. But I may have just gotten that from Tasha's Hideous thingies.

That didn't help much.

Oh well,

Tata.

 

[hong]

A saving throw is not an "action", in the 3E sense of the term. You always get a save, even if you're stunned, dazed or whatever. It isn't spelled out if you get a Ref save when you're paralysed, held or unconscious, but I'd allow it because I'm a nice guy.

 

[Anders]

It isn't spelled out if you get a Ref save when you're paralysed, held or unconscious, but I'd allow it because I'm a nice guy.

Well, I would not.

(Evil Necromancer): Paralyses Lidda the rogue.
(Tordek): "Now that sucks".
(Jozan): "Yup. She can do just about nothing now, except looking stupid."
(Evil Necromancer): Grins evily and tosses a fireball at the paralyzed rogue.
(Lidda): Rolls reflex save, and makes it (?).
(Tordek): "Wow, did you see that? She dodged that nasty fire thingy even when paralyzed!"
(Jozan): "Yup, she did. You see, beacuse Pelor is such a nice fellow, he lets anyone attempt Reflex saves against dangers, even when dead".
(Tordek): "Um..".

 

[hong]

Well, I would not.

D00d, it's magic. You'd allow Fort and Will saves for a held character, why not Ref saves?

 

[Geoff Watson]

They can save without penalty when Stunned.

They can even make Reflex saves when Held or Unconcious, though they effectively have Dex 0 which will make saving difficult.

Maybe their Cloak of Resistance was enough to save them all by itself, etc.

Geoff.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm afraid that's debatable.

A stunned creature can make reflex saves. A held or bound - or otherwise helpless - creature cannot.

PHB p110 : A helpless creature is treated as having a Dexterity of zero.

MM p10 : "Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks."



-Hyp.

 

[Ruvion]

I would have to disagree with the sentiment of letting creatures (PCs in this case) have Reflex saves when paralyzed/helpless/unconscious/etc... There is a mention of this in the DMG, which I can not recall the page number at the moment. However, under the dragon entry in the MM, it states that when held within the dragon's maw (rendered effectively immobile) you do not get a Reflex save vs the dragon's breath attack. Extrapolate this evidence to all other instances where you are effectively immobile. Some may argue that the inability to perform a Reflex save is from the pain of being entrapped within razor sharp teeth of the dragon, but I do not think so.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

Regardless of the "realism" of allowing Reflex saves when Stunned, the Stun effect is already powerful enough as it is.

 

[Ruvion]

This was not what I was looking for...

...but good enough for our purposes I think.

From the pages of DMG
Page 76, under Evasion and Improved Evasion: ...As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.

The emphasis is mine of course.