Reflex saves when Stunned?!?
- Thread starter Anders
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IceBear
Explorer
For what it's worth I agree with you about realism in D&D - I've never disputed this. But if you can't move, you can't dodge. To state that a sleeping bag absorbed 10d6 points of fire damage so you didn't take any damage is a REALLY bad explanation. I personally don't see not allowing a save when you are helpless as being that bad. The only insta-death spells I can think of require a Fort or Will save. Everything else causes damage.
IceBear
IceBear
IceBear said:
Of course it's a frickin' bad explanation!
The situation is self-evidently absurd (not to mention in violation of the laws of physics; people don't shoot fireballs out of their hands in real life), and so any attempt to reconcile it with commonsense notions of fireballs and dodging ability are always going to be dubious. But you wanted a handwave, and I provided one.
IceBear
Explorer
Again I give up...I was talking realism within the boundries of the game. In the game wizards can shoot fireballs out of their hands, but as I understand it people sleep the same in the game as in real life. If a meteor fell on you while you were asleep I don't think you could dodge out of the way - same here. Anyway....
In my game if you are held you don't get a Reflex save (I feel it fits best with the rules and with logic). In yours you do (You feel that it fits the rules better and thus logic be damned). Fine with me...you can't convince me you're right and I can't convince you. Again, fine with me.
IceBear
In my game if you are held you don't get a Reflex save (I feel it fits best with the rules and with logic). In yours you do (You feel that it fits the rules better and thus logic be damned). Fine with me...you can't convince me you're right and I can't convince you. Again, fine with me.
IceBear
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IceBear, you sound frustrated. I don't know if my interpretations will help, but I will try:
Helpless (bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious) DO get a Reflex save, but their Dex is effectively 0.
Bound (helpless) characters cannot use Evasion. Thus, sleeping rogues cannot use Evasion against a Fireball, but MAY (if they're really lucky) succeed at a Reflex save.
Snatch (a Dragon feat) specifically addresses saving throws and breath weapons, but does not otherwise impart a condition of Helpless on the character who was Snatched.
Two ton rocks don't need to roll to hit things in their way, but neither are characters allowed a Reflex save to escape damage. This is the "crushing wall trap" referenced in the DMG. Characters MAY have enough hit points to survive the initial crush (rationalize as desired), but the subsequent rounds may get messy if the character cannot move.
Helpless (bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious) DO get a Reflex save, but their Dex is effectively 0.
Bound (helpless) characters cannot use Evasion. Thus, sleeping rogues cannot use Evasion against a Fireball, but MAY (if they're really lucky) succeed at a Reflex save.
Snatch (a Dragon feat) specifically addresses saving throws and breath weapons, but does not otherwise impart a condition of Helpless on the character who was Snatched.
Two ton rocks don't need to roll to hit things in their way, but neither are characters allowed a Reflex save to escape damage. This is the "crushing wall trap" referenced in the DMG. Characters MAY have enough hit points to survive the initial crush (rationalize as desired), but the subsequent rounds may get messy if the character cannot move.
IceBear
Explorer
Sorry, yeah, my wife and I had a big argument this morning and my emotions from that bled over into this (sorry...everything is all better now anyway so I am calmer).
Using an effective Dex of 0 works in most cases, but I still see a high level character as being able to make a Reflex save even though they can't move. I'm just using DM licence to decide whether or not it is possible to dodge an attack (much like they suggested to do with Evasion).
Anyway, doesn't really matter.
IceBear
Using an effective Dex of 0 works in most cases, but I still see a high level character as being able to make a Reflex save even though they can't move. I'm just using DM licence to decide whether or not it is possible to dodge an attack (much like they suggested to do with Evasion).
Anyway, doesn't really matter.
IceBear
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Whoah!
What's going on here? Are you in the process of all agreeing that you get a reflex save when helpless?
You should post this question under its own thread, then more knowledgeable people could point you to the exact pages, errata and rules clarification.
But the bottom line is that having a Dexterity of 0 is effectively like having no DEX at all; you can't move. And a Reflex save is always described as the ability to avoid damage through agility and quick reaction.
So you can't make a reflex save when paralyzed, sleeping, chained to the wall or in any other situation that would also make you subject to a CDG.
Go ahead, post this in its own thread and see how much support "Reflex save when you have 0 dexterity" can get.
On Topic: Stunned character are not paralyzed, they're just stunned. They're still conscious and protecting themselves as best as they can under the circumstances. Basically, they lose DEX bonus but don't have a DEX of 0 so they do get Reflex save
What's going on here? Are you in the process of all agreeing that you get a reflex save when helpless?
You should post this question under its own thread, then more knowledgeable people could point you to the exact pages, errata and rules clarification.
But the bottom line is that having a Dexterity of 0 is effectively like having no DEX at all; you can't move. And a Reflex save is always described as the ability to avoid damage through agility and quick reaction.
So you can't make a reflex save when paralyzed, sleeping, chained to the wall or in any other situation that would also make you subject to a CDG.
Go ahead, post this in its own thread and see how much support "Reflex save when you have 0 dexterity" can get.
On Topic: Stunned character are not paralyzed, they're just stunned. They're still conscious and protecting themselves as best as they can under the circumstances. Basically, they lose DEX bonus but don't have a DEX of 0 so they do get Reflex save
IceBear
Explorer
I agree with you Mal, but I felt I was on the losing side of the argument (no backup 
)so I gave up because in the end I don't care what people do in their games, only what I do in mine.
I was going to ask how someone who was chained to a wall so tightly that they couldn't even curl up a little and was fireballed by his evil wizard capturer over and over could make a reflex save. He's not avoiding damage through toughness or force of will (Fort or Will saves), and he can't even move enough to cover up his vitals. There is no way he could make the save.
This kind of reminds me of an old cartoon in Dragon. A fighter was tied to a post and was about to be executed by a firing squad of archers. The guy was riddled with arrows and the commander said "Keep shooting guys, he's only got 37 hitpoints left". It is exactly for this situation that CdG was added to the game (although back in 2nd Edition I'd just rule that a helpless character in that situation was just killed outright)
IceBear
)so I gave up because in the end I don't care what people do in their games, only what I do in mine.I was going to ask how someone who was chained to a wall so tightly that they couldn't even curl up a little and was fireballed by his evil wizard capturer over and over could make a reflex save. He's not avoiding damage through toughness or force of will (Fort or Will saves), and he can't even move enough to cover up his vitals. There is no way he could make the save.
This kind of reminds me of an old cartoon in Dragon. A fighter was tied to a post and was about to be executed by a firing squad of archers. The guy was riddled with arrows and the commander said "Keep shooting guys, he's only got 37 hitpoints left". It is exactly for this situation that CdG was added to the game (although back in 2nd Edition I'd just rule that a helpless character in that situation was just killed outright)
IceBear
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IceBear said:I agree with you Mal, but I felt I was on the losing side of the argument (no backup
IceBear
I'm pretty sure you are correct IceBear.
Your Reflex save indicates your ability to quickly react to danger and move out of harm's way.
As you pointed out, the text for the Evasion ability in the DMG (page 76) and the MM supports this view: You have to be able to move to make a Reflex save.
I would find it pretty hard to justify being able to make a Reflex save when you can't move or react to the danger.
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I also support the "If you can't move, OR there is no where to dodge" you get no Ref Save.
You are stunned, you GET ONE. Why? Because you still get to defend yourself against melee... so?
You are paralyzed? NO way!
You are in a 10 foot corridor and a Dragon Breathes a 100 foot cone into it. You get NO SAVE. You have nowhere to dodge. The End. The PC's can set up similar traps.
You are stunned, you GET ONE. Why? Because you still get to defend yourself against melee... so?
You are paralyzed? NO way!
You are in a 10 foot corridor and a Dragon Breathes a 100 foot cone into it. You get NO SAVE. You have nowhere to dodge. The End. The PC's can set up similar traps.
