Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Xahn'Tyr]

From the SRD:

A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed.

A helpless defender (naturally) can't use
any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is
treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it
were -5.

DEX 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity.
A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. If it can act, it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

I do not think it is overly difficult to deduce that Zero Dex = no Dexterity score = fails all Refelx saves

 

[IceBear]

Yes, but on this board if it does not explicitedly state that fact in the book, someone will argue with you that you are wrong, even if it is the most logical conclusion

IceBear

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You are in a 10 foot corridor and a Dragon Breathes a 100 foot cone into it. You get NO SAVE. You have nowhere to dodge. The End. The PC's can set up similar traps.

In that case I would grant the Reflex save. You can still quickly hit the ground and protect your head with your arms. That's enough to justify 1/2 damage.

Beside, when you suceed a saving throw against breath weapon, your PC isn't moved outside of the blast area, so how did he avoid damage? He might as well have been in a corridor!

 

[IceBear]

I'd give a save too. I might not allow Evasion to work there; it would depend on the exact circumstances and the player argument (I duck behind the big fighter, for example ).

IceBear

 

[Anders]

On Topic: Stunned character are not paralyzed, they're just stunned. They're still conscious and protecting themselves as best as they can under the circumstances. Basically, they lose DEX bonus but don't have a DEX of 0 so they do get Reflex save

Yesterday night, a PC (illusionist/spellsword) fooled one of my baddies (a rogue/fighter) with the illusory pit spell from Dragon Magazine, then she attacked the rogue with a weapon (thus according to the spell text, the rogue became stunned for 1 round forward), and followed up those jabs with her intended killing blow, a quickened lightning bolt.

Then my topic question became evident. Should the rogue be able to dodge the spell with a Reflex save or should he not?
The player (of course) wouldn't let him. I judged fast (as I always do in-game) that the rogue could (and thus he made it alá improved evasion and survived).

Coming to think of it I fully agree with Mal Malenkirk (quoted above). In the future, I will rule suchs situations from the followin add-on (I hate tuck-ons, but what can you do?):

Stunned: ....as in the DMG...plus looses any positive Dex modifier to Reflex saves made.

I do not agree with those people that deems Reflex saves to be OK when paralyzed, held (and therefore also deductively unconscious, or even dead).

 

[Geoff Watson]

Having NO Dex score is DIFFERENT from having ZERO Dex!!!

Does a shadow collapse helpless due to having no Strength score?
NO Strength is DIFFERENT from ZERO Strength.

The rules 'Helpless' mention that Dex is reduced, but never say that no Relfex save is allowed.

Geoff.

 

[Nish]

Having NO Dex score is DIFFERENT from having ZERO Dex!!!

Does a shadow collapse helpless due to having no Strength score?
NO Strength is DIFFERENT from ZERO Strength.

The rules 'Helpless' mention that Dex is reduced, but never say that no Relfex save is allowed.

Geoff.

I would assume that the reason shadows do not collapse despite lacking a strength score, is that they have no mass. Frankly I don't think that this really applies to the current discussion any.

 

[Caliban]

Having NO Dex score is DIFFERENT from having ZERO Dex!!!

Does a shadow collapse helpless due to having no Strength score?
NO Strength is DIFFERENT from ZERO Strength.

The rules 'Helpless' mention that Dex is reduced, but never say that no Relfex save is allowed.

Geoff.

The rules do state that when your Dex is zero, you can't move. (DMG, page 72, Ability Score Loss, second bullet point.)

The rules also state that if do not have room to move, or cannot move (such as when "boun" or tied up), that you cannot use Evasion, Improved Evasion, or make a Reflex save. (DMG, page 76, Evasion and Improved Evasion, second bullet point.)

Therefore: If you can't move you can't make a Reflex save.

I fail to see how it makes any difference why you can't move, just that you can't move. Whether you are Helpless, Paralzed, Held, Unconscious, Tied up, or in very small box, you can't make a Reflex save.

 

[Geoff Watson]

The rules also state that if do not have room to move, or cannot move (such as when "boun" or tied up), that you cannot use Evasion, Improved Evasion, or make a Reflex save. (DMG, page 76, Evasion and Improved Evasion, second bullet point.)

The rule you mention only prevents Evasion and Improved Evasion, NOT Reflex saves.

Geoff.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The rule you mention only prevents Evasion and Improved Evasion, NOT Reflex saves.

To quote the rule: "As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character mus have room to evade." (emphasis added).

Caliban's right (no surprise there).