Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Geoff Watson]

Then why does it mention that only under Evasion? Why not under Helpless, or Reflex saves, or Ability Damage, etc?

It only applies to Evasion, not Reflex saves in general.

Geoff.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Then why does it mention that only under Evasion?

Why is information on Two-Weapon Fighting under the Heavy Crossbow section?

 

[Pielorinho]

Just wondering: are there any creatures described anywhere in the game that have no dex score?

If there aren't, I think we can reasonably assume that the MM quote sould refer to creatures with a DEX of 0 -- otherwise, it's a completely irrelevant rule.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

I think some plant monsters might not have any Dex scores, but I can't access the SRD right now so I can't check.

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

Just wondering: are there any creatures described anywhere in the game that have no dex score?

If there aren't, I think we can reasonably assume that the MM quote sould refer to creatures with a DEX of 0 -- otherwise, it's a completely irrelevant rule.

Daniel

The Shrieker fungus has no Dex score, and can't make any Reflex saves.

 

[Alejandro]

Yes, but on this board if it does not explicitedly state that fact in the book, someone will argue with you that you are wrong, even if it is the most logical conclusion

IceBear, I really, really want to agree with you. Your arguments make sense, even if the rules are not 100% clear. However, IMC, it simply doesn't hurt to give everyone a chance (however slim) to survive something requiring a Reflex Save when they're Helpless.

In my mind, being Helpless is different than having no room whatsoever to make a Reflex save: a Helpless rogue in a tunnel that's barely wide enough to squeeze through is just as disadvantaged as a perfectly healthy rogue when a Fireball explodes in front of their face.

 

[Caliban]

IceBear, I really, really want to agree with you. Your arguments make sense, even if the rules are not 100% clear. However, IMC, it simply doesn't hurt to give everyone a chance (however slim) to survive something requiring a Reflex Save when they're Helpless.

In my mind, being Helpless is different than having no room whatsoever to make a Reflex save: a Helpless rogue in a tunnel that's barely wide enough to squeeze through is just as disadvantaged as a perfectly healthy rogue when a Fireball explodes in front of their face.

I'm not sure I understand how it is different.

If your in the tunnel, you can't move to avoid the fireball.
If your Helpless, you can't move to avoid the fireball.

A non-helpless guy in the tunnel and a helpless guy in the tunnel may both be equally disadvantaged, but that just means the penalty from being helpless and the penalty from being in the confined area overlap, they don't stack.

A non-helpless guy in wide open area can move to avoid the fireball, but a helpless guy in a wide open area still can't move to avoid the fireball.

 

[IceBear]

It seems that a lot of people want to give helpless people a Reflex save to increase survivablitity. If you're helpless, in my opinion, making a Reflex Save is the least of your worries. If I was helpess, I'd rather that someone fireball me for full damage than have them CdG me. Typically, if someone gets held by a priest or wizard, the party will react so that someone is in the spellcaster's face for the rest of the combat, so it's not like the spellcaster will be able to keep dropping Reflex save spells on you.

And, as Caliban said, if you wouldn't let someone in a small tunnel make a save because they can't dodge why would you give one to someone who can't even dodge. I might even allow a save to someone in a confining space if circumstances warranted it - large shield or other object to squeeze behind, for example - but I wouldn't let someone who couldn't even more get one, even if he was in the middle of a large grassy field.

IceBear

 

[Errant]

My 2c...

IMC, I would adjudicate "no Reflex save period for the helpless". It sucks to be helpless...

I like the way you think Ruvion, which suits my tastes down to the ground. I’m sure my players would disagree though.

… the preternatural reflexes of the rogues, functioning on a subconscious level, allowed them to avoid the remainder of the damage.

THIS is how I perceive all Reflex saves working… characters act on a subconscious level, which is why I would allow a stunned character a Reflex save (its not a conscious act, it’s a reaction). I would however be inclined to impose a –2 Circumstance penalty for their disorientation.

Generally, I take the view that (in the DnD universe) magic is like “the Force”: it surrounds & flows through everything (even “magic-dead” areas). If you live long enough (i.e. gain enough levels) you learn how to manipulate magic on a subconscious level. This is how rogues learn to dodge fireballs, fighters can pick themselves up from a 100’ fall & etc (home rules notwithstanding): they subconsciously manipulate the magic around them so as to deflect/absorb the damage. Its not enough to save you by itself if you’re “helpless” etc (because you’re either unaware or your awareness defeats your subconscious reactions), but it easily explains how you can survive other seemingly impossible situations.

This approach helps me rationalise many “illogical” rules & situations in DnD.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

IceBear, I really, really want to agree with you. Your arguments make sense, even if the rules are not 100% clear. However, IMC, it simply doesn't hurt to give everyone a chance (however slim) to survive something requiring a Reflex Save when they're Helpless.

It doesn't hurt?

What if one of your player successfuly cast hold person on an enemy rogue.

During the two following rounds, the rogue successfuly save against two lightning bolts cast by the sorcerer (who was simply including the rogue in a line with another opponent).

On the 3rd round the evil cleric cast remove paralysis on the rogue.

On the 4th round the Rogue kills a PC, possibly the sorcerer, thanks to a a flanking sneak attack.

Wouldn't the deceased PC be a little annoyed by such a situation? The rogue should be dead!

I know what you'll answer; "Hey, but this is just as likely to save a PC!" Yeah, and denying reflex save on helpless opponents is just as likely to allow for a PC victory.

The difference is that one option makes sense, the other doesn't. And it's always more aggravating to die in an absurd scenario than in a more reasonable one.