Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Alejandro]

Good point, Caliban. I should just assign a condition of Helpless to those stuck in a tunnel and either grant them a Reflex Save (albeit at a severe disadvantage) or disallow Reflex Saves for all Helpless characters.

I guess I'll have to add a new House Rule, then, because I'm now convinced that the official rules disallow Reflex Saves for all helpless characters.

 

[Alejandro]

I know what you'll answer; "Hey, but this is just as likely to save a PC!" Yeah, and denying reflex save on helpless opponents is just as likely to allow for a PC victory.

I'm not worried about who wins or loses. Chalk it up to karma, or fate, or luck, but I will still give everyone a saving throw, no matter what. It's like giving a saving throw to avoid dying to a CdG: slim, but perhaps possible.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'm not worried about who wins or loses.

Well I am. Usually defeat means PC deaths unless you are the fudging type.

IME surrender/escape only becomes an option when characters start falling.

 

[Henry]

This falls under the "way too hard" syndrome.

In the lifetime of this community (praise be the Eric and praise be the Morrus) we have run across numerous places where certain rules fall between the cracks, just by virtue of human omission. Just because they didn't say "a helpless creature doesn't get a reflex save" yet have numerous other places which imply that if you can't move, you can't defend, people will defend to the death a completely implausible rules condition.

It's at that point you have to state your argument, agree to disagree, and move on.

If you wish to give immobile people reflex saves, by all means go ahead. But in my opinion it goes beyond the bounds of applying rules logically with common sense.

BTW, as for stunned creatures - as Caliban said, stunned is not helpless. In fact, stunned creatures still get the basic 10 points of Armor Class that the dirt-basic 1st lvl commoner gets! This is best represented by the person who has been hurt badly, and is not into taking actions cognitively, but still knows that something bad is happening, and they "have to get out of the way."

 

[IceBear]

Amen!

And I'll say it one more time - not being allowed to make a Reflex save sucks but it's not instant death like some seem to think. The reason you're allowed a Fort Save to avoid a CdG is not because of luck or karma, but because of how physically tough you are and your ability to shrug off damage - that's completely independent of being able to move.

IceBear

 

[Tzarevitch]

Well I am. Usually defeat means PC deaths unless you are the fudging type.

IME surrender/escape only becomes an option when characters start falling.

If they are defeated then they may end up dying just like the NPCs do the other 99.44% of the time. THe players can chalk that up to a learning experience, make new characters and move on.

Tzarevitch

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

If they are defeated then they may end up dying just like the NPCs do the other 99.44% of the time. THe players can chalk that up to a learning experience, make new characters and move on.

My adventures have killed so many PCs in my current campaign that only one player is still using his original PCs. There has been so many death that I had to give up on two major story arc that I really liked just because there was no one left to carry them out. I'm not especially worry about PC death and don't take special care to prevent them.

Beside, my original comment had a different meaning.

I originally proposed a scenario where PCs could win/lose based on the reflex save that an opponent could or could not make.

Then Alejandro said he didn't care about win/lose and just wanted everyone to have a saving throw, presumably to give everyone a chance to survive. I pointed out that to lose often means to die, thus implying that perhaps he should care about win/lose.

Please keep the context in mind when you quote.

 

[hong]

I know what you'll answer; "Hey, but this is just as likely to save a PC!" Yeah, and denying reflex save on helpless opponents is just as likely to allow for a PC victory.

By this argument, critical hits are good for PCs because they let the characters kill enemies faster. And we know that simply isn't true.

The difference is that one option makes sense, the other doesn't. And it's always more aggravating to die in an absurd scenario than in a more reasonable one.

And it's even more aggravating to die without any chance to save yourself, however absurd.

 

[hong]

Why is information on Two-Weapon Fighting under the Heavy Crossbow section?

Because the information is specific to the use of crossbows. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[IceBear]

And it's even more aggravating to die without any chance to save yourself, however absurd.

And I'll say it again - if you are helpless automatically failing a Reflex save is the least of your worries. I don't see not allowing a Reflex save when the PCs are helpless as being very unreasonable or unfair to the players. In fact, I asked my players whether or not they felt they should be allowed to make a Reflex save while helpless, and to quote one of them "How the hell could I dodge a fireball if I can't move? Of course I shouldn't get a save. Why? Don't tell me the %@#%ing rules allow it? Stupid 3rd Edition". My players are very pragmatic that way (and that guy is still hung up on 2E ).

Since my players and I agree that it's more absurd to ALLOW a Reflex save when helpless than to disallow one in face of PC survivabilty (I mean they introduced the CdG rules to kill helpless PCs, if you'd rather fireball me that kill me, go for it), I guess I'll stand by my original position.

IceBear