Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Mal Malenkirk]

And it's even more aggravating to die without any chance to save yourself, however absurd.

I really don't think so.

I can make peace with the fact that my PC was fireballed to death while paralyzed. Hey, life is tough. It would have been better to succeed my save against the paralysis effect, and it'd had been great if my friends could have saved me but... *shrug* I'm an adventurer, that kind of death is not unexpected.

I would be seething if my PC was slain by an opponent that by all rights should have been fireballed to death during the time he spent helpless.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Wall of Fire:

You get a reflex save to avoid the wall if the wizard try to make it appear on top of you.

But you get no reflex save to avoid the damage when jumping through the wall.

Just more evidence that a reflex save is not an unalienable right!

 

[Caliban]

Because the information is specific to the use of crossbows. Draw your own conclusions.

Except that it's not specific to the use of crossbows. That information applies to any ranged attack, whether it's a crossbow, thrown dagger, whip, or handgun.

The Two Weapon Fighting feat doesn't apply to ranged attacks, and this information is only found in the equipment section in crossbow entry. However, it has been confirmed that the information is correct.

The PHB and DMG is several tidbits like this. Originally the fact that being Stunned caused you to drop anything you held was only mentioned in the glossary of the PHB, yet it is the official rule. Later the description of the Stunned condition in the DMG was errata'd to reflect this.

The text in the Evasion entry that states "As with a Reflex save" is a pretty clear statement that the limitation applies to Reflex saves in general, and not just the Evasion ability. I really don't see how it could be interpreted another way.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The text in the Evasion entry that states "As with a Reflex save" is a pretty clear statement that the limitation applies to Reflex saves in general, and not just the Evasion ability. I really don't see how it could be interpreted another way.

Excatly. Some things were just "too obvious", it seems, for the designers to notice the omissions - fighting with a greatsword and armor spikes is another example.

 

[Number47]

I've finally read through this whole thread and I have only one question: sleeping bags?

 

[IceBear]

hehehe - yeah, sorry. I was in the middle of a fight with my wife at that time (and thus not thinking too clearly) and said sleeping bags instead of bed rolls, but you knew what I meant

IceBear

 

[Shard O'Glase]

All this talk about reflex saves for helpless foes is just more crap trying to keep the wizard down. Oh no I don't get a save for 1/2 damage against your battle axe, but even when helpless you get a save against my fireball.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Well Caliban, I disagree.

IMC, Helpless characters can make Reflex Saves, but not use Evasion, as the rules (As I read them) say.

If you want to use a different rule that's up to you.

PS: I'm getting a bit annoyed at everyone just assuming that you are correct. How about you post incorrect information on another rules question and see how many people agree with you just because you're Caliban?

Geoff.

 

[Ristamar]

They aren't assuming he is correct, at least on this matter. He is correct (going by the official rules). Plenty of others were correct, too.

It's fine if you disagree with the rules and play it your own way instead. No reason to get upset about it... *shrug*

 

[Caliban]

Well Caliban, I disagree.

IMC, Helpless characters can make Reflex Saves, but not use Evasion, as the rules (As I read them) say.

If you want to use a different rule that's up to you.

Well, technically, in this case you are using different rules. I've shown where it states that you can't make a Reflex save if you can't move, or have nowhere to move to. You have not demonstrated where it states anything contrary to that.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your game, I'm just trying to explain what I believe the intent of the rules are, and why they are that way. If you prefer to allow a paralyzed person to somehow make a reflexive move to reduce damage, more power too you. That's just not what I believe the rules say.

I could see you making a case for allow a Fort save modified by your current Dex of 0 (or something similar), but I just can't understand how you reach the conclusion that you can make a Reflex save when you can't move. *shrug*

PS: I'm getting a bit annoyed at everyone just assuming that you are correct.

Most of the time, I am correct, especially when I can find specific text to support my position. When there aren't any clear or specific rules for a given situation, I'm just as likely to be incorrect as anyone else.

How about you post incorrect information on another rules question and see how many people agree with you just because you're Caliban?

Geoff.

That wouldn't be honest, and I try not to lie to people.