-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Reflex Saves
- Thread starter Gaiden
- Start date
To KiRyn
To address your post a bit more seriously:
I am calling into question exactly what you point out - what defines a restrictive space that is so restrictive that one ought to lose his or her reflex save?
To me the rules are a bit ambiguous. The point of my Lidda post was not to be taken literally but to, through description, describe an alternate point of view to why there could be room to move around.
Don't get me wrong, the dragon's mouth is definitely a restricted space - which, in fact, is exactly my issue. It seems that by comparison, it is no more restrictive than being pinned by...let's say...a fire giant who then maintains the pin when a meteor swarm detonates around the giant with him as ground zero. I simply can't see how in one case you would get your save, and in the other you would not. What's worse, (and something that I am not sure (emphasis on not SURE) anyone has caught on to) is that while the dragon has your snatched - you are GRAPPLING. This means that you can still move around. You are NOT PINNED inside the dragon's mouth.
Perhaps a better example of the comparison to another restricted space would be a room. So let's say we have a room that is XxYxZ dimensions. An area effect evocation (we will stick with the fire theme and say fireball) explodes in that XxYxZ room and manages to completely fill the room with its AoE. Let's first make X = 3', Y = 2', and Z = 6'. Let's further assume that the creature in this case is shaped exactly to the dimensions (some mutant human let's say that has its head on the inside of its body, its legs are so wide that they have the same width as the rest of its body, etc. So there is a perfect fit down to the very last seem. In this case, the room functions similar to a case where one is paralzyed/dex0/immobile/etc. because one simply could not move in that space (assuming the above conditions).
Now let's change the dimensions - add 5' to every dimension. Now there is definitely room to move. However, lets say the AoE still takes up the complete volume. What happens? Does the person get a reflex save?
I sincerely am not sure and am not decided one way or the other. My tenedency is to say yes, because I don't like not giving the PC's a chance to overcome an obstacle, but again, what do the RULES say?
Now let's fine tune the above example to cause the pinnacle analogy: Lets say the room as the over all dimension described above with the addition of the 5' but change the actual shape so that some areas of the room are "restrictive". Lets say there are long spikes that jet out of the room AND MOVE (like, let's say the clamping jaw of a dragon). Moreover, lets ridge the inside of the floor and ceiling (to resemble the roof of the mouth). Lets make a random wall have a curtain that has an animate object spell cast on it that tries to grapple (not game terms - merely descriptive) with whatever touches it. Let's put a huge whole in one wall and have fire pour out of it at some crazy mph-age every d4 rounds. Finally let's have one wall open to empty space, but larger and sharper spikes surrounding that end. Oh and one more thing, just to make the room similar enough, let's make the end where the fire comes out hinged so that the top and bottom halves of the room can rotate on that pivot.
In short - let's make a rogue's nightmare trap (or dream, depending on how you look at it).
I believe, the dimensions are about similar to a great wyrm red dragon's mouth.
Here's the question - does Lidda get a save in this room?
I am not trying to load the example one way or the other (although, I may unwittingly have done just that). What I am looking for is a clear and reasoned answer one way or the other.
To me, it seems the clear difference, is that in one example, that of the dragon, there is the condition of being grappled. In my room example that condition does not apply.
With regards to the rest of what you wrote and your other post
Perhaps I was not clear, all that climbing on the inside of a dragon's throat, etc. was just fluff. I was just enveloping myself in the scenario and imagining the possible irony that could occur
.
Point - please ignore all of that post that would, or could be considered house rules. I was trying to focus on a descriptive way of pointing out how the restrictive space seems (to me) ambiguous.
However, I don't think I am loosely interpreting any rules with regards to snatch.
BTW - Alejandro, what does SRD mean? Moreover, is that directly from the MM or some other source? If it is directly from the MM, well, don't I feel sheepish. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
However, on the flip side, I think that official ruling calls for some explanation on the part of the Sage.
To address your post a bit more seriously:
I am calling into question exactly what you point out - what defines a restrictive space that is so restrictive that one ought to lose his or her reflex save?
To me the rules are a bit ambiguous. The point of my Lidda post was not to be taken literally but to, through description, describe an alternate point of view to why there could be room to move around.
Don't get me wrong, the dragon's mouth is definitely a restricted space - which, in fact, is exactly my issue. It seems that by comparison, it is no more restrictive than being pinned by...let's say...a fire giant who then maintains the pin when a meteor swarm detonates around the giant with him as ground zero. I simply can't see how in one case you would get your save, and in the other you would not. What's worse, (and something that I am not sure (emphasis on not SURE) anyone has caught on to) is that while the dragon has your snatched - you are GRAPPLING. This means that you can still move around. You are NOT PINNED inside the dragon's mouth.
Perhaps a better example of the comparison to another restricted space would be a room. So let's say we have a room that is XxYxZ dimensions. An area effect evocation (we will stick with the fire theme and say fireball) explodes in that XxYxZ room and manages to completely fill the room with its AoE. Let's first make X = 3', Y = 2', and Z = 6'. Let's further assume that the creature in this case is shaped exactly to the dimensions (some mutant human let's say that has its head on the inside of its body, its legs are so wide that they have the same width as the rest of its body, etc. So there is a perfect fit down to the very last seem. In this case, the room functions similar to a case where one is paralzyed/dex0/immobile/etc. because one simply could not move in that space (assuming the above conditions).
Now let's change the dimensions - add 5' to every dimension. Now there is definitely room to move. However, lets say the AoE still takes up the complete volume. What happens? Does the person get a reflex save?
I sincerely am not sure and am not decided one way or the other. My tenedency is to say yes, because I don't like not giving the PC's a chance to overcome an obstacle, but again, what do the RULES say?
Now let's fine tune the above example to cause the pinnacle analogy: Lets say the room as the over all dimension described above with the addition of the 5' but change the actual shape so that some areas of the room are "restrictive". Lets say there are long spikes that jet out of the room AND MOVE (like, let's say the clamping jaw of a dragon). Moreover, lets ridge the inside of the floor and ceiling (to resemble the roof of the mouth). Lets make a random wall have a curtain that has an animate object spell cast on it that tries to grapple (not game terms - merely descriptive) with whatever touches it. Let's put a huge whole in one wall and have fire pour out of it at some crazy mph-age every d4 rounds. Finally let's have one wall open to empty space, but larger and sharper spikes surrounding that end. Oh and one more thing, just to make the room similar enough, let's make the end where the fire comes out hinged so that the top and bottom halves of the room can rotate on that pivot.
In short - let's make a rogue's nightmare trap (or dream, depending on how you look at it).
I believe, the dimensions are about similar to a great wyrm red dragon's mouth.
Here's the question - does Lidda get a save in this room?
I am not trying to load the example one way or the other (although, I may unwittingly have done just that). What I am looking for is a clear and reasoned answer one way or the other.
To me, it seems the clear difference, is that in one example, that of the dragon, there is the condition of being grappled. In my room example that condition does not apply.
With regards to the rest of what you wrote and your other post
Perhaps I was not clear, all that climbing on the inside of a dragon's throat, etc. was just fluff. I was just enveloping myself in the scenario and imagining the possible irony that could occur
.Point - please ignore all of that post that would, or could be considered house rules. I was trying to focus on a descriptive way of pointing out how the restrictive space seems (to me) ambiguous.
However, I don't think I am loosely interpreting any rules with regards to snatch.
BTW - Alejandro, what does SRD mean? Moreover, is that directly from the MM or some other source? If it is directly from the MM, well, don't I feel sheepish. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
However, on the flip side, I think that official ruling calls for some explanation on the part of the Sage.
0-hr
Starship Cartographer
Is it the damage from the sting that kills you? No, those pinpricks are just an annoyance at best. It's the poison that is deadly in this case. Could Lidda attack? Yes (with a light weapon). If her blade were poisoned, would the poison take effect? Yes. Would she get sneak attack damage? No.Gaiden said:
Saying that being inside a creature grants you an automatic sneak attack is not just an interpretation, it is a house rule.
kreynolds
First Post
Ki Ryn said:
True. The Snatch ability of a dragon is, quite simply, a direct violation, or sidestepping, if you will, of the grappling/restricted space rules. When you're grappling, you don't lose your save. Period. When you're not in a restricted space, you don't lose your save. Period. A dragon's mouth, if large enough, is not a restrictive space, no more so than a room that is larger than you. Period.
Snatch breaks/sidesteps/alters/violates/changes these rules.
Gaiden said:
BTW - Alejandro, what does SRD mean? Moreover, is that directly from the MM or some other source? If it is directly from the MM, well, don't I feel sheepish. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
However, on the flip side, I think that official ruling calls for some explanation on the part of the Sage.
SRD = System Reference Document
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
From the SRD:
Snatch specifically disallows a reflex save against the breath weapon. It's a dragon special ability.
Calliban - thanks for the info.
KiRyn,
I really think you might be missing the analogy by getting bogged down in the details.
Please, forget about the sneak attack on the inside of the dragon. It's not the point of the thread.
Seriously, what was the point of writing this? Are you reiterating kreynolds point that snatch violates all other situations of grappling?
Again, I will ask for a reasoned response that highlights why in one case you lose your save, and in the other you do not.
KiRyn,
I really think you might be missing the analogy by getting bogged down in the details.
Please, forget about the sneak attack on the inside of the dragon. It's not the point of the thread.
Seriously, what was the point of writing this? Are you reiterating kreynolds point that snatch violates all other situations of grappling?
Again, I will ask for a reasoned response that highlights why in one case you lose your save, and in the other you do not.
0-hr
Starship Cartographer
Well, if it is possible for me to reiterate something before he says it, then sure, I'm reiterating what he said.Gaiden said:
Honestly though, I don't see a problem or ambiguity here. The text talks about "A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area" not getting a reflex saving throw. A think that a pinned character is as good as bound. I think that a character clamped in a dragon's mouth is in a completely restrictive area. I do not think that a grappled character is in either situation.
Part of the problem might be that I'm picturing the dragon keeping it's mouth shut and closed tight (as if it didn't like the creature it was holding). The roof of the mouth would be pressing against the character, which is hard up against the tounge and then the soft pallet underneath. Insert various razor sharp teeth probably pinning an arm or leg, and it seems like a pretty bad spot to be.
If you imagine the inside of a dragon's mouth more roomy (like the interior of Johna's whale perhaps), then I guess you could jump around a bit. Just strikes me as rather silly is all. Now if a (big) dragon wanted to be careful and make room, I suppose it could. By keeping it's toungue down and maybe it's cheeks a little puffed out (and being careful not to swallow), it could probably allow room for someone to sit up and move about a little. If it wants that person dead, however, it seem like it would be rather trivial to clamp down and hold them against the roof of it's mouth.
My interpretation of a "completely restrictive area" is one in which you cannot so much as crouch or roll over without real effort. When you are grappling, you have a bit of mobility within the square. This goes away when you are pinned (or snatched).
kreynolds
First Post
Ki Ryn said:
*chuckle*
Ki Ryn said:
I would agree. The "pinned" condition specifically states they are held immobile. That sounds pretty bound to me, not to mention the fact that you obviously don't "have room to move".
Ki Ryn said:
But why is it restrictive? Granted, the Snatch ability directly alters the standard rules with it's own modified rules, but it still directly contradicts the standard rules, and with no rhyme or reason in the description.
Logically, a small creature would be damn near the same size as the mouth of a huge dragon, thus the restricted space.
However, in regards to a small creature, this logic completely breaks down the larger the dragon gets. A colossal dragon would have a really big frickin' mouth compared to a halfling, and even if the argument is used that the tounge is grappling the halfling, it would still get a save because grappling, by the rules, does not you a reflex save, and the Snatch ability doesn't actually pin you. Naturally, if the Snatch ability implies pinning the halfling, that's different.
Ki Ryn said:
By the rules, you're correct. By my own warped logic, well...that's a different story, and they make medicine for people with my logic.
Last edited:
