Reflex Saves

[Gaiden]

Spawned from an earlier post that has degraded to a bit of bickering I have a serious question with regards to reflex saves and grappling. I recall a smackdown where a dragon snatches a medium sized creature in its mouth and then breath weapons the poor fool while doing bite damage effectively giving the now-roasted poor fool (assume red dragon) no reflex save.

If I am incorrect about the no reflex save, ignore the rest of this post. However, if I am not, I was wondering what the difference was between the medium size character in the dragon's mouth and a character pinned in a grapple.

To me, it seems...well the two scenarious are obviously different. However, in game terms, it seems that the rule mechanics would function perfectly equivelantly.

This question was brought up earlier but never got an answer in the other post - none that I saw anyway.

So if a Dragon initiates a grapple as a free action after biting and succeeds dealing bite damage again and then next round breaths shouldn't the character get a reflex save?

Afterall, the dragon did not even technically pin the character but just succeeded in grappling him.

At least, if the character does not get a save, then in the alternate medium vs. medium creature where A has grappled B and A is successful, B ought to lose his save and especially should lose it if B is pinned (so long as A maintains the grapple of course)

This also brings up another point, what if A is grappling B and A succeeds but then wants to voluntarily let go of B as B is trying to escape. Lets say they will both be hit by a fireball. According to the rules, A can only let go on his turn, even if it was to be considered a free action.

Wow...

ok

way too many questions with how grappling affects reflex saves.

CALLING THE SAGE,

CALLING THE SAGE

What are the circumstances in which one would lose the ability to make a reflex save? - looking for explicated answers, not just whenever they can't move or in an area that is too restrictive.

If you are grappling, what happens to your reflex save?

If you are pinned, what happens to your reflex save?

If you are grappled inside a creature's mouth, what happens to your reflex save?

If you are swallowed (let's say by a purple worm) what happens to your reflex save?

Also, let's say that , oh I don't know, a purple worm (again) has swallowed you and one of your friends lightning bolts the creature, but unwittingly manages to line up the lightning bolt right where you are on the inside of the creature, do you have to make a save? Again, please no dismissing question as - oh solid barrier - of course not - because electricity is conducted through living flesh.

Moreover, let's say the purple worm makes its save, and does not have evasion - would you still have to make a save?

What if it had evasion?

Going back to the Dragon, let's say the dragon's friend fireballs the creature's face while you are inside its mouth (it's a red dragon), do you get a save?

etc.
etc.
etc.

any answers?

 

[Crothian]

I think you get reflex asaves when grabbled. You do loose your dex bonus and don't threaten an area (as it says on pg 138 in the PHB) but I see nothing about loosing one's reflex save.

 

[IanB]

By rule the only effects of being in a grapple are (that I can find in the SRD):

Grappled
Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappled character cannot move, cast a spell, fire a missile, or undertake any action more complicated than making a barehanded attack, attacking with a Small weapon, or attempting to break free from the opponent. In addition, grappled characters do not threaten any area and lose any Dexterity bonuses to AC against opponents they aren't grappling.


Being pinned on top of that means:

While a combatant is pinned, opponents other than the one pinning the combatant get a +4 bonus on attack rolls against the combatant (but the combatant is not helpless).

Grappled characters do not lose their Reflex saves, at least according to the sections about grappling.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Grappled or Pinned characters do not lose their Reflex saves as a general case. By the rules, the only way to lose Reflex saves is to be grappled by a Dragon with the Snatch feat, and that only applies against the dragon's breath weapon.

Geoff.

 

[IceBear]

I agree that there isn't an offical statement in the rules about losing your Reflex Save if you can't move, but it's implied in the write up for Evasion (I don't have my book with me, but it says something to the effect of "Like reflex saves you cannot evade if in a confined area or unable to dodge" - emphasis mine).

Anyway, I don't tend to disallow someone a save very often (it is a game of heroic fantasy so not allowing saves is counter to that), but for Reflex saves I rule that if you can't dodge, then you don't get a save. In the case of grappling, I would still allow a reflex save (maybe with a penalty) as you could maybe roll your opponent over you to absorb some of the blow, roll yourselves behind cover, etc).

Ah, here's the quote from the SRD:

EVASION & IMPROVED EVASION

If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

Improved evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

IceBear

 

[Alejandro]

By the rules, only dragons with the Snatch feat can do the grapple-breathe-nosave combo.

By the rules, you're only disallowed a Reflex save if you're helpless.

IMC, I always allow saving throws. Yes, it does allow for paralyzed rogues to close their eyes and miraculously escape unscathed from a Fireball, but it works for me.

 

[0-hr]

I would call a dragon's mouth (or a worm's belly) a competely restrictive area. I would consider a pinned person to be about as mobile as a bound one. So no Reflex saving throws in either situation.

 

[IceBear]

Yes, it does allow for paralyzed rogues to close their eyes and miraculously escape unscathed from a Fireball, but it works for me.

That's one case where I wouldn't allow a save - that's just too much suspension of disbelief. (Not saying that you're wrong to allow them in your campaign - whatever works for you).

Question though, you say no reflex save if your helpless. How is being paralyzed different than being helpless (or bound as per the example)?

IceBear

 

[Alejandro]

No, no - I said that by the rules being "helpless" disallows Reflex saves. I'm not following the rules, and give saves no matter what condition the victim is in.

 

[IceBear]

That's what I kinda thought you meant after I reread it (Missed the "IMC" when I posted).

IceBear