Reframing the 15 min day

Pondering the "15-min" day problem, and I was thinking that this could use better framing.

You can partly avoid the problem by making it hard for players to stop for the day. Add random encounters, and force them to travel to a safe point.

That would work, except that, when players have used up their resources, what can they do? How can a spell-caster, with no spells left, keep contributing?

That seems to be the heart of the problem.

In terms of 4E, if the system has a "partial recharge" that occurs between encounters, where there is a more gradual erosion of usable abilities, I'm thinking that is a good thing.

In 3.5E, you could approximate this by allowing partial healing between fights ("catching your breath") and partial recovery of spells ("refocusing your mind"). That fits the abstract nature of the system anyways, where "damage" partly reflects the effects of exhaustion and mental fatigue. Some of that ought to be recoverable.

Although, allowing the regeneration of your "top gun" abilities would be a problem.

Anyways, my 2c.
 

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As long as daily abilities exist it will always better to have a 15 minute workday if you have the time. This is simply a playing style.

Imo it can't be solved by rules design (unless you remove all daily abilities and the PCs are 100% healed and ready after every fight) but by giving the PCs a limited time to solve the adventure or make the monster harder, better prepared when the PCs leave for a day after every combat.

When the PCs rest in the main hall of a goblin den after every single battle then they will be swarmed by the whole lair at once after the goblins realized that. And this will not be a balanced encounter.
Or the goblins might flee and take their treasure with them.
 

To be honest, I'm probably going to change "per day" powers to "per session" powers. As long as powers are working on a per encounter narrative basis rather than in game time, I see no reason why per day powers shouldn't work the same way. It also solves the problem of starting a new session and people asking, "have we slept yet?"
 

Peter LaCara said:
To be honest, I'm probably going to change "per day" powers to "per session" powers. As long as powers are working on a per encounter narrative basis rather than in game time, I see no reason why per day powers shouldn't work the same way. It also solves the problem of starting a new session and people asking, "have we slept yet?"
I had been thinking about the same thing. Though, if a 'session' ran really long, it might make sense to break and call it a 'new' session after pizza.
 

I think if you add more emphasis on non-combat challenges, you can help address this problem through the rules.

Put more focus on skills, social encounters, environmental challenges, traps, and puzzles, and you won't have as many "15 minute day" problems.

And you do that by offering more tools to run and adjudicate those types of challenges, and a clear guide to experience points and other rewards for overcoming them.
 

The 15 minute day system from 3.5e obviously has its problems, but at the same time 4e will have its problems as well. Having a party of adventurers gain large numbers of levels because they can clear a dungeon in a single adventure, is, IMO, a problem.

The solution to both is in the DM's hands - careful encounter design, and catering to the limitations of the system. In 3.5e that might mean less encounters per day to the point where the PCs are never really caught completely without resource, and in 4e that'll mean limiting the number of encounters to make sure PCs don't level to fast or reach epic levels in one day. I think you'll find that despite the system, both approaches in either system will lead to the same thing.

Pinotage
 

I don't know who these DMs are who let the characters tuck in and sleep after 15 minutes, and I don't know who these players are who spend their entire daily repertoire in 15 minutes.

Most games I played and ran had the PCs wake up (say, at 7 AM), take about one hour praying/preparing/weapon drilling, then another hour eating, discussing strategies and breaking up camp, then head out to explore. It may take an hour or so for any real encounter to happen (already 10 AM). Between recovering from that encounter, sharing ideas and so on, they might have another encounter in one hour, then stop for lunch and rest a bit. At about 1 PM they resume exploring, having about one or two encounters in the afternoon. At about 6 PM they start looking for a campsite. Between securing it, setting up camp and having dinner, it's already 9 PM. Starting at 10 PM any spellcasters refrain from using any spells.

This, of course, when they don't go SWAT on the dungeon. I had a 3rd-level party clean out nearly all of the dungeon in under 2 minutes (in game). They had a spell running and wanted to make the most of it, so they took monster after monster and only went back to check things out/loot the bodies after the spell ran out (it was Produce Flame).
 

tomBitonti said:
Pondering the "15-min" day problem, and I was thinking that this could use better framing.

You can partly avoid the problem by making it hard for players to stop for the day. Add random encounters, and force them to travel to a safe point.

That would work, except that, when players have used up their resources, what can they do? How can a spell-caster, with no spells left, keep contributing?

That seems to be the heart of the problem.

In terms of 4E, if the system has a "partial recharge" that occurs between encounters, where there is a more gradual erosion of usable abilities, I'm thinking that is a good thing.

In 3.5E, you could approximate this by allowing partial healing between fights ("catching your breath") and partial recovery of spells ("refocusing your mind"). That fits the abstract nature of the system anyways, where "damage" partly reflects the effects of exhaustion and mental fatigue. Some of that ought to be recoverable.

Although, allowing the regeneration of your "top gun" abilities would be a problem.

Anyways, my 2c.
Hit point regeneration in 3.x can usually be covered with Wands of Cure Light Wounds - though I don't think that was the original intention (especially considering the cost of a Ring of Regeneration, which provides nearly the same benefit, except slower and with an incredlby high one-time cost).

But most spellcasters usefulness doesn't hinge on their hit points, but on their spells remaining, which means you need a way to recover those - but without ever recovering all of it.

I think one way of "fixing" it in 3.x might be by allowing low level spells to "recharge", especially those spells that scale pretty well
- Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow on the "offensive" side
- Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor on the defensive side.
For spells with duration, recharging should only be possible if the spell is already expired (dismissed, dispelled, run out) - you don't really want the Wizard to "spam" his Invisibility spells around the group, unless he spends some effort doing so.

One suggestion: Remove bonus spell slots. Instead, a spellcaster can prepare spells worth a number of spell levels equal to his Spellcasting Ability Modifier as a "per encounter" spell. These spells refresh after expirations and 1 minute of preperation. Alternatively, he may double the effectives spell cost to make a spell a "at will" spell. Such a spell recharges one round after expiration and spending a swift action. (1st round casting, 2nd round doing something else, 3rd round or later recharge and use again)
A Sorcerer (or other "spontaneous" casters?) might have the option of reducing their spell slots per day by 2 for selecting one spell of that level for which these costs are cut in half (minimum 1, rounded down) (spell for this benefit is chosen or changed on learning a new spell)

A 1st level Wizard with an Int of 16 could select 3 1st level spells as per encounter spell (maybe Magic Missile, Shield and Feather Fall), or 1 as at will spell (Magic Missile?) and 1 as per encounter spell (Shield?).
A 4th level Wizard with an Int of 17 would still chose similar spells, since he might not want to pull out the crossbow after his Per Encounter 2nd level spell is gone.

A 17th level Wizard with an Int of 30 (+10) would maybe choose spells like this:
At Will: Scorching Ray (4 effective spell levels), Per Encounter (Chain Lightning)
A 17th level Cleric with a Wis of 30 would maybe choose spells like this:
At Will: Cure Light Wounds (2 effective spell levels), Divine Favor (2 effective spell levels), Per Encounter: Heal (6 effective spell levels)

A Level 12 Sorcerer with a Charisma of 25 (+7) might elect to reduce his spells per day by 2 for Scorching Ray (2nd level spell) and Chain Lightning (6th level spell) and select his renewable spells like this:
At Will: Scorching Ray (2 effective levels); Per Encounter: Chain Lightning (3 effective levels), Haste (3 effective levels).

A Level 8 Bard with a Charisma of 20 (+5) might choose like this:
Per Encounter: Rage (2 effective levels), Haste (3 effective levels)

Might really be interesting to test in-game.
 
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My suggestion to solve this is by changing the XP value of encounters to be somewhat dependent on how many encounters the party has had that day. The first encounter is worth some fraction of its actual value, and the proportion actually awarded steadily increases. In this way, the party has a strong incentive to hold back their most powerful abilities in an attempt to go that extra mile.

Story reasons also work, of course, as can wandering monsters/random encounters.
 

Peter LaCara said:
To be honest, I'm probably going to change "per day" powers to "per session" powers. As long as powers are working on a per encounter narrative basis rather than in game time, I see no reason why per day powers shouldn't work the same way. It also solves the problem of starting a new session and people asking, "have we slept yet?"

I've played in a system with per-session dice-pools that were real important to game play (Shadowrun 2nd & 3rd ed, karma pools).

It's first now, quite some time after I quit that campaign, I started asking myself: Why did so many battles get pushed over to the next session because we inexplicably got bogged down on minor details and rules queries? And I realized it had to do with whose dice pool had been depleted by the pre-fight investigative phase. We had simply been filibustered... ;)
 

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