Reinventing fantasy cliches

[Clavis]

A great idea to subvert a standard fantasy cliche would be to set the PCs up to stop the return of the "rightful" king to a newly democratic state that is enjoying peace, prosperity, and freedom without him. And the king's not evil; he's actually a Paladin who wants to restore the old feudal order. Of course, if the king is restored he'll do away with wicked, Chaotic things like elections, trail by jury (instead of ordeal), equality for women, etc.

Take that, Tolkien!

 

[Dlsharrock]

Those Japanese castles are incredibly well thought through also. I used to think those strange sweeping roofs were simply aesthetic, but in fact they're designed to carry water, thrown down from the highest windows, from one roof to the next, putting out fires from flaming arrows. A bit like one of those cool champagne pyramids you get at 70s parties

 

[Desdichado]

A bit like one of those cool champagne pyramids you get at 70s parties

That went out in the 70s?!

 

[Afrodyte]

Thanks

I just want to thank all the participants and readers of this thread for keeping things on topic and providing thoughtful, intelligent replies to a potentially sensitive topic. Kudos, ENWorld!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Might I suggest that you not make assumptions about my information and its source? Or perhaps even read my earlier posts, where I described the textbook of my 6th grade social studies class (and most subsequent ones as well) that described the architecture, social importance, and function of castles? And which—gasp—had lots of pictures of them as well?

I wasn't making any assumptions about your sources, and I caught your description of your textbook.

I was just suggesting that you take an informal poll of your associates to see what they thought.

A Germanic perspective of a castle is just as cliche as an American.

But for some minor architectural details, like the materials used or the shape of the rooftops, you can find similar diagrams and floorplans for fortified dwellings all over Europe.

For example, the Native American encampment you showed was similar to images of Ambleside Fort. The Asian fortress has a layout similar to Gisors, Chateau Gaillard, or (the seemingly larger) Krak des Chevaliers (which added concentric walls, inspired by places like the city walls of Constantinople).

BTW, most of the ones Ludwig built would be considered "palaces" more than anything else- "Schlosses" and not "Burgs." "Burgs" were built with military reasons in mind, Schlosses were upscale dwellings...mansions, if you will.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

My Stunty, er, Dwarven campaign, is based around and in what is basically one huge fantasy castle: the under-mountain city the Dwarves call home. Big time cliche of course. But pretty good defense against most things, even fantasy critters and magic. Mine is a fairly low magic game so Earthquake spells aren't a big problem. Besides which for every bad guy cleric who can cast one there's Dwarf who can counter it (it's good to have a god of earth and mountains on your side when you live in a cave.)

 

[Afrodyte]

*nudges conversation away from castle architecture - showing it a nice new thread it can have - and back toward inverting/subverting fantasy cliches*

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I like the Rightful King trying to overthrow the popular democracy. One wonders by what right he claims a mandate...

Related theme: what have folks done with "The Dark Lord on his Dark Throne" trope?

For my Borderlands campaign there is in deed a Dark Lord in the East. He's your basic Dark Lord type but with strong overtones of Rasputin. He came to power by winning the confidence of the old Tsar, performing "miracles" etc. and rising to become one of the great boyars. The old established families resented this upstart but to no avail. Just before the old Tsar died of a, er, sudden illness, he named the upstart as his successor. The Dark Lord then crushed a revolt by the boyars and set himself upon his blood soaked throne. Only one legal claimant to the throne remains alive; a paladin-Anastasia who has retreated to the Borderlands with her followers. Here she is likely to clash with the humanoids who live there.

How could I spice up my Dark Lord? It's a low magic setting, more sword and sorcery then a standard DnD. This is all theoretical as I doubt I shall ever run anything in it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dark Lords:

1) A Catholic priest once said in a sermon "Satan isn't ugly- Satan is beautiful!" Meaning that if evil wasn't attractive on some level, most people wouldn't be drawn to it.

So- start the party as low level employees of the gov't. in the land of the "Dark Lord"- only he's quite normal looking...handsome, even. Hero of the people, etc. When the "Benevolent Leader" speaks, its an occasion of almost holiday proportions (which is as it should be in a theocratic feudal society). As far as they know, he's a real nice guy- as nice as any ruler could be. (OK, not so nice to traitors and other criminals, but who is, really?)

Over time, as the PCs gain power, they get asked to do more and more dangerous and distasteful things...including attacking villages just across the border that are known to harbor the brigands who are raiding their fair country, or rooting out unbelievers.

(At some point, I hope your players wake up and smell the dictatorship.)

IOW, they're kind of taking the role of raiding party/bandits, going down a road to hell paved with good intentions. Once the players realize the true state of affairs- OMFG, we're on the wrong side!- they try to help overthrow their government.

2) The "Dark Lord" is known to be a Lich-King of immense power. However, nobody knows what he looks like, since decrees come from his Vizier, another powerful undead creature.

Eventually, after battling this Vizier, they finally find the Lich-King...

Only to find that the Lich-King hasn't issued an order in almost 400 years, and is currently engrossed with his study of subspecies of hummingbirds across the planes.

Yes, he initiated the raising of the dark army that countless heroes have died fighting, but that was ages ago. He has no interest in politics whatsoever anymore...

Or does he?

 

[Dlsharrock]

what have folks done with "The Dark Lord on his Dark Throne" trope?

Embraced the cliche! I'm running a Third Age of the Sun Middle-Earth campaign (no, edit that) I'm trying to get off the ground a Third Age of the Sun Middle-Earth campaign with the original Dark Lord squatting in his tower. He hasn't moved all his stuff into Barad-Dur yet, he's still skulking and sulking in the tower of Dol Guldur on the fringe of Mirkwood. (Six players, one character submission so far and a lot of discussion about starting locations, which race of elf best suits which character class, the annoyance of low level magic etc.)

Egging on those who subscribe to Tolkien-bashing, I really love Sauron as a BBEG because he has the best and basest motive for a bad guy. He's the original Hell's Angel! Where a lot of my own home-spun creations fall down is believable motive, true also of fiction I think where many a lazy author relies on the reader's presumptions about evil dudes to just present a nasty piece of work as a nasty piece of work and thus perpetuates the 'bad' cliche. Evil dudes, by my preference, should not come out of the womb wearing skull caps and black capes. They can be cliches, fine, but they need at least some back-story to make them acceptable cliches. The way-back-mentioned Tad Williams trilogy was guilty of this and I shudder at comparisons between the *four* bricks of the Memory, Sorrow, Thorn *trilogy* and Tolkien. What Tad omitted from his revised idea, Tolkien wrote down in secret (and some) thus Sauron, and all of Middle-Earth, has a very deep back story I can rely on if the integrity of the bad guy ever falls into question. I do like Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, though. Some great cliches in there - particularly the scullion made hero aspects of Arthurian legend, complete with sword(s), cliches I never tire of (as long as they're done well).

Like the poster who researched like billy-o and kept all the details to himself, when it comes to gameplay additional research and backstory always feeds suspension of disbelief without necessitating a full and long winded exposition of the fine details. Even the worst cliches can be made believable if executed with attention to detail, I guess is the controversial point I'm trying to make, though I'm also saying the detail needn't be lifted above the level of foundation.

Edit: Also, regarding the previous mention of Elven sub-races, I definitely blame J R R for starting this trend, though some blame must rest with early editions of D&D for using the idea without embarking on Tolkien's historical reasoning.