Reinventing fantasy cliches

[Jürgen Hubert]

There's a difference between my first image of a castle (which is indeed Neuschwanstein) and my understanding of what real castles looked like. It's kind of a false posit.

Nor do I see any reason to single out Americans.

I didn't - in my initial post on this subject, I provided a counter-example for Germans: The perception of Native Americans in the "Old West" over here.

German perception of Native Americans is possibly irretrievably shaped by the works of Karl May, a German writer of dime novels who wrote a large number of stories near the end of the 19th centuries. Many of these stories were set in North America, and what he lacked in factual knowledge (he only visited North America long after he wrote these stories) he made up for with a vivid imagination (he was also prone to adding rather blatant author stand-ins into his stories). These stories tended to perpetuate the stereotype of Native Americans as "noble savages" and all things considered were for the most part grossly inaccurate.

Nevertheless, his stories were widely read by German youths throughout the many decades that followed and shaped German perceptions to this very day. I'll bet with you that one the first things that springs to the mind of Germans when asked about Native Americans is Winnetou, the protagonist of most of these stories.

So you see that I wasn't trying to make fun of Americans with my comments about castles - cultural misconceptions are an international phenomenon (just ask some East Asians what comes to their mind regarding Europe or the USA, especially if they have never been here). The people on this board all have a good knowledge of what castles are, and the odds are good that their circle of friends also mostly includes lots of people with an active interest in history.

But the Americans without an active interest in history and no prior European travel experience? I still say their ideas of castles is likely to be distorted by Neuschwanstein and the Disney castle.

 

[haakon1]

But the Americans without an active interest in history and no prior European travel experience? I still say their ideas of castles is likely to be distorted by Neuschwanstein and the Disney castle.

You just reminded me of an ad jingle for one of Donald Trump's casinos in Atlantic City, New Jersey.

"You're the king! You're the king.
You're the king of the castle.
Trump Castle hotel and casino.
And baby, baby do we know
How to treat a king!"

As I remember the ad showed scantily lady young ladies escorting folks into an ornate (read: super cheesy) marble area with fountains and so on. The reality of senior citizens from Long Island arrived by the busload to play nickle slots with their $10 voucher for making the free bus trip was not shown.

Then there's also "Medieval Times" the jousting and dinner entertainment chain and the Excalibur casino in Vegas.

 

[Desdichado]

But the Americans without an active interest in history and no prior European travel experience? I still say their ideas of castles is likely to be distorted by Neuschwanstein and the Disney castle.

And I still say you are just making that up.

Or, to quote a prevalent meme:

Cite?

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Personally, I'd like to move on from the topic of Americans and castles, but while we're there...

Americans have two sources for castle impressions: Disney/Neuschwanstein and British castles. So, they're heavy into towers, but also crenellations. They look like gray stone. Heck, anyone who's eaten at Round Table Pizza knows what I'm talking about.

Most German castles, on the other hand, don't look like "castles" from the Disney/British view. Many of them weren't designed for war (especially if they were built by Ludwig or August the Strong). Those that were designed for war tend to be more boxy than the British tower-and-crenellation design. Most Americans, if they see a German castle, think "mansion" from the appearance.

When Americans think "castle", they see this:

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or this:

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but not this:

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and definitely not this:

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Photos of Neuschwanstein, Windsor Castle, Albrechtsburg, and Moritzburg from Wikipedia.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And I still say you are just making that up.

Or, to quote a prevalent meme:

Cite?

I dare say that Jürgen, like me, has that as his opinion based upon personal experience, not any study. IOW, there is nothing to cite.

Might I suggest you ask some of your non-gamer, non-traveller American acquaintences about their view of castles?

 

[DrunkonDuty]

roguerouge wrote:
I think what's appealing about these Euro-centric settings is that they make the familiar exotic, estranging us from the familiar through fey, folklore, and myth.

haakon1 wrote:
I also think there's something powerful about using "real" myths -- trolls under bridges, vampires, centaurs, and so forth -- as opposed to WOTC's latest invention.

I think this pretty much sums up why we do use cliches in gaming: they are already familiar and they have a wonderful depth that no Drow (or Shadar-kai) can hope to match.

 

[Desdichado]

I dare say that Jürgen, like me, has that as his opinion based upon personal experience, not any study. IOW, there is nothing to cite.

I know that there's not. Although I allowed the possibility that there might be.

Might I suggest you ask some of your non-gamer, non-traveller American acquaintences about their view of castles?

Might I suggest that you not make assumptions about my information and its source? Or perhaps even read my earlier posts, where I described the textbook of my 6th grade social studies class (and most subsequent ones as well) that described the architecture, social importance, and function of castles? And which—gasp—had lots of pictures of them as well?

 

[Dlsharrock]

Castle thread: when I think of castles I don't think of any of the ones pictured. For some reason I always think of the rather dull drizzle-misted one from Monty Python's Holy Grail (I fart in your general direction/help help I'm being oppressed) and tend to include them in my games. They are, however, a cliche. As are all castles.

Returning to the original thread, a bit: I'd like to see (and may sit down and design after this) a fantasy castle not entirely extrapolated from Eurocentric inspirations (or Disney) but designed for the fantasy milieu within which they intend to be used. Defences against flying beasties. Defences against magic, and not just counter-magic. Defences utilising the surrounding fantasy landscape. A moat of lava might be a good idea, if it wasn't such a bloody cliche.

Chosen One Syndrome: this cliche works in literature (for me) only when the chosen one doesn't want to be the chosen one. By definition this tends to be in a satirical context, though Frodo was none too eager. Douglas Adams' Arthur Dent is probably the best example I can come up with. Fate and the machinations of the Heart of Gold decided he was the Chosen One- though chosen for what and why is still a bit of a mystery to me. And all he wanted was a decent cup of tea.

Cups of tea and modern Brits brings me to another pertinent point. Though their medieval ancestors form the mud-swilling, tavern brawling backbone of most fantasy, more recent English cultures are rarely used as a basis for Eurocentric fantasy races. When I wrote the Middlemist campaign setting my city elves were an austere Victorian people who carried sword sticks and requested 'mater' cover the legs of the occassional table lest it inflame unnatural urges! Lots of Elven youngsters were abroad as hippyish adventurers, fleeing the strict lifestyles and whipping sticks of their parents and looking for fun in the wilderness. This gave the hippy elf cliche something of a motivation instead of 'he's an elf, so he likes peace and trees' it was 'he's an elf, so he's rebelling'.

 

[Clavis]

Cups of tea and modern Brits brings me to another pertinent point. Though their medieval ancestors form the mud-swilling, tavern brawling backbone of most fantasy, more recent English cultures are rarely used as a basis for Eurocentric fantasy races.

The main locale for my current group of PCs has an English Industrial Revolution-like Capitalist culture, and a governmental system inspired by the Cromwell-era Commonwealth. There once was a feudal nobility, but it is now illegal, and claiming to be king is a capital offense. The right to vote, and the noble title of Lord, is conferred by purchasing it. And I don't go all Tolkein and present that as evidence that the land needs to be saved by the True King; the old nobility really were scum buckets. Not that things are really better now...

 

[Woas]

Speaking of cliche, I have a question. What image do Germans have when asked what the believe a castle is?

And I'm sure most Germans if asked that could just point over their shoulder to the nearest large stone and mason structure that looms over the town.

They would not describe say:

Yes that is correct. Some Native American peoples built castles.

I bet a German wouldn't describe this either:

A Germanic perspective of a castle is just as cliche as an American. The point now is to subvert these cliches to make awesome new fantasy creations.