Related to selling a magic item thread

[Azure Trance]

That thread was so useful I printed portions of it out that contained the crunchy rule bits. One of them I want to adapt for selling high priced items, like Jewelry, when I came onto a snag. The rules stated, get the PC's CHA and divide it into 500. For example, 500/10 is 50. This would be the margin split on the appraised value of the item. Or, 500/CHA 10 is 50. That means the merchant sells for 125% and buys for 75% the appraised value of the item. So now the questions:

A) Appraised value of the item is the PCs or Merchants? By default it would be Merchant, but if the PC's had a lower appraisal then the merchants couldn't he just use the PC's lower one to save more money? Or, can the PC's ever win.

B) There was a variant rule of replacing the 500/PC CHA with (CHA plus opposed bluff/sense motive). I like that one better, but how would the opp bluff/sense motive check be applied? Would it be whoever won the b/sm check would apply their entire die roll to the CHA, or only the difference? (Difference being, I roll bluff 10 and merch gets 15. Difference is 5. That would be CHA - 5, but if I won with a 15 to 10 would it be CHA + 5?) Or something else perhaps ...

If anyone can clarify, or perhaps the person who made this can, I'd appreciate it. Until then I'll just use the a) always lower and b) difference +/-

 

[Azure Trance]

Pointless bump. Just wanted to share that I want to milk the players out of every gold I can (I let them loot it anyway, so I figure it's ok in the end)

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, since I think that 500/CHA=margin thing was mine, I'll comment. As always, these are simply my views on this.

A> Merchant's. He doesn't KNOW what the players think it's worth, after all. This is part of the haggling process, and ties nicely into the roleplaying side of the game.
Let's say the players are trying to sell an item. The merchant thinks the item is worth 100, while the players think it's worth 120. The merchant offers 75 for it. The players, outraged, respond that it's worth far more than that. They think he should be offering 90. You can either decide for yourself based on the roleplaying, or have them do an opposed Charisma check and tweak the price based on the result.
Besides, if the situation were reversed (merchant thinks 120, players 100), and he offered 90, the players would take the deal, even though they think he should have offered less.
Also, the merchants should have more ranks of Appraise than players, so they'll have a far better estimated value.

B> That variant was for when the players were actively trying to bluff the guy into a better price. All haggling involves a little of this, but this was for using Bluff to convince the merchant his appraisal was too low. That is, to try and shift his STARTING bargaining position.
The CHA modified is the player's. The merchant's CHA didn't have anything to do with these equations.
Also, doing this should have a drawback. If you try to Bluff the storekeeper and fail, he won't deal with you at all. White lies in haggling are one thing, outright manipulation is another.

You see, this whole thing was abstract to begin with. Think of it this way:
(Examples use CHA 10 customer)
Selling a 100gp item to the merchant: player wants 100, merchant offers 50, haggle to 75
Buying items would work the same, except that the merchant starts at 150% and haggles down.

If you have a lower CHA than that, the haggling won't meet at the midpoint. For selling, it'd be more like 100-50, 90-55, 80-60, 70-65, final price 66.7
(it'd take CHA of 7.5 to get that, but you get the point). The merchant is changing his price less than you are.

A high CHA, on the other hand:
100-50, 95-60, 90-70, 85-80, final price 83.3
(That's for CHA 15). You're giving up less ground than he is.

I wanted something that wouldn't require constant rolling but that would be different for different people. The Bluff/Sense Motive opposed check shouldn't be used on EVERY roll.
One change I was thinking of making was to allow Diplomacy ranks to add to your CHA for these purposes, but this'd only work if you allowed merchants some counterbalance, like subtracting their Sense Motive from your CHA.

 

[Azure Trance]

Also, the merchants should have more ranks of Appraise than players, so they'll have a far better estimated value.

Still digesting what you said, but want to comment on this - I felt from reading the rules of appraise that it was a wee bit too random anyway, high skill or not. You roll appraise to a DC (when selling relatively rare items such as jewelry) to see if you can estimate the item, and then roll a random 2d4+5 x 10% to find out a price within 70%-130% anyway. So long as the PC's make it, even barely, a very high appraise isn't as worth it as, say, Sense Motive

edit.

uh, not to argue with you personally but I just wanted to express that appraise imo is random

 

[Azure Trance]

A> Merchant's. He doesn't KNOW what the players think it's worth, after all. This is part of the haggling process, and ties nicely into the roleplaying side of the game.

Derrr ... I just realized that a few minutes ago to. Teaches me for posting late at night, I'll tell you that.

B> That variant was for when the players were actively trying to bluff the guy into a better price. All haggling involves a little of this, but this was for using Bluff to convince the merchant his appraisal was too low. That is, to try and shift his STARTING bargaining position.

Whoopsie.

If you have a lower CHA than that, the haggling won't meet at the midpoint. For selling, it'd be more like 100-50, 90-55, 80-60, 70-65, final price 66.7
(it'd take CHA of 7.5 to get that, but you get the point). The merchant is changing his price less than you are.

A high CHA, on the other hand:
100-50, 95-60, 90-70, 85-80, final price 83.3
(That's for CHA 15). You're giving up less ground than he is.

Em ... my mind might be foggy (wrote a term paper last night, started another this morning), but about those CHA examples ... I have the sense that you're doing it one way, but me another.

I'm confused since you used a PC sell for 100gp merchant buy for 50gp, which should be a CHA 10 PC, and then haggle them up using examples of two different CHA (7.5, 15). Am I mistaken in that instead all bids start out with the (merchant) buying it for 50% and THEN the PC's CHA is factored in?

The way I thought - all are using 100gp items (assuming appraise for both parties was 100% accurate, random beast it is), but the one with CHA 7.5 would have a 66.67 margin, split into the (merchant) buying for 66.67 (66.67/2 = 33.33. 100-33.33=66.67) and the PC's selling for 100. Assuming I'm still doing this procedure correctly still, the CHA15 PC would have the (merchant) buy (500/15 = 33.33. 33.33/2=16.67. 100-16.67=83.33) the 100gp item at 83.33gp. From this bidding point (66.67 and 83.33 respectively) THEN the haggling begins.

 

[Azure Trance]

(Examples use CHA 10 customer)
Selling a 100gp item to the merchant: player wants 100, merchant offers 50, haggle to 75
Buying items would work the same, except that the merchant starts at 150% and haggles down.

Just noticed: that example was for a CHA5 customer (ugly thing I'd assume) 500/5=100 margin, split 50/50 to merchant sells at 150% and buys at 50%.

 

[Azure Trance]

Lastly, I'm assuming that the price fluctuations when bargaining (you win the opposed CHA roll, and as a PC your bargain the price up) is determined 'on the fly' with lesser rewards for low CHA then if you had high CHA?

 

[Spatzimaus]

Em ... my mind might be foggy (wrote a term paper last night, started another this morning), but about those CHA examples ... I have the sense that you're doing it one way, but me another.

I'm confused since you used a PC sell for 100gp merchant buy for 50gp, which should be a CHA 10 PC, and then haggle them up using examples of two different CHA (7.5, 15). Am I mistaken in that instead all bids start out with the (merchant) buying it for 50% and THEN the PC's CHA is factored in?

No, we're doing it the same way. All I was trying to explain was the rationale behind the numbers.

Take the CHA=10 example. 500/10 = 50%, so 125% and 75% are your numbers, right? This gives you the quick-n-dirty numbers you want as a DM.

But most shopkeepers won't come right out and say "this item is worth 100gp, so I'll give you 75 for it". It's more likely that they offer 50, you demand 100, they offer 60, you demand 90, and so on until you meet at the middle ground (75). This may take several cycles to reach, where each of you gives a little ground. Those numbers I gave tell you the END point of this haggling, but the START points will be much wider.

If you assume CHA=10 is average, then the amount you give at each step should be the same as the amount THEY give, which puts the final price at the midpoint. But, if you have a low CHA (the 7.5 case), they'll be less likely to budge in price. For every 10 you drop your "demand" price, they might only raise their "offer" price by 5. End result, you meet at a different final price (66.7), even though your starting demand (100) and his starting offer (50) were the same as for the high-CHA people.
Likewise, if you have a high CHA (the 15 case), for every 5 you change your price, he might change by 10. Again, this results at a different final price (83.3), even though the starting points were the same.

That's what the 500/CHA was for. It's not like each item has a magical price tag on it that adjusts to the CHA of the person looking at it; although, that'd be really cool. If the item's worth 100, the merchant lists it for 150, but you can "talk him down" to a lower price based on your CHA (125 for CHA=10) through polite haggling (and maybe a Diplomacy check). Any merchant who has no interest in haggling should just assume CHA 10 and list it for 125.
You can try to use Bluff to improve the odds, but that goes well beyond polite haggling and into the realm of hostile manipulation; you're not just trying to improve the price, you're actually trying to convince him his appraisal was wrong. Charm spells are right out.

Now, if the player wants to roleplay the haggling out, you can use these numbers as a guideline, but let them get a better price for their efforts. Maybe let them do an opposed CHA check to improve the odds.

Someone with CHA=5 wouldn't be able to convince him to lower his price at all, so I cap it at the 150%/50% starting point.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I felt from reading the rules of appraise that it was a wee bit too random anyway, high skill or not.
So long as the PC's make it, even barely, a very high appraise isn't as worth it as, say, Sense Motive

No argument there, the Appraise skill isn't well constructed. I've house-ruled it to where a large success margin results in a narrower range on prices.

The comment, though, is that a NPC shopkeeper is more likely to successfully appraise the item on the first attempt, since most players don't spend skill points on Appraise. As a result, it's hard to convince a merchant that your estimate is better than his (and whoever said "the customer is always right" was an idiot; if the customer was right, he'd be the one getting the paycheck). So, prices should be set based on HIS appraisal, not yours.