Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[CapnZapp]

I think it will be a tough sell mainly because it comes across as having been designed in a bubble where 5th edition didn't exist.

The fact is, 5E incorporates several fundamental changes that make the game simply easier to use.

In contrast, PF2 appears byzantine and clumsy.

I really think Paizo missed the boat here. Their game comes across as clueless as to what gamers want.

And this has nothing to do with providing deeper player crunch. I think it is eminently possible to create a game that takes inspiration from the quantum leap in usability and newbie friendliness, and still offers a more satisfying charbuild experience.

I just don't think PF2 is that game. Far too often, it is fiddly mostly for fiddliness sake, and not because it offers any real variety in how you gestalt your character's personality.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

If the designers meant for PF2E to be a 4 core book game then that is one pretty stupid commercial decision. I'm sure they have heard of and understand the concept of Barrier to Entry, haven't they?

 

[Zaukrie]

I bought the book yesterday. I've played ONLY D&D since it was first released, but this is a great rule set. I hope to find people to play with here in Portland, OR.

 

[Zaukrie]

I think it will be a tough sell mainly because it comes across as having been designed in a bubble where 5th edition didn't exist.

The fact is, 5E incorporates several fundamental changes that make the game simply easier to use.

In contrast, PF2 appears byzantine and clumsy.

I really think Paizo missed the boat here. Their game comes across as clueless as to what gamers want.

And this has nothing to do with providing deeper player crunch. I think it is eminently possible to create a game that takes inspiration from the quantum leap in usability and newbie friendliness, and still offers a more satisfying charbuild experience.

I just don't think PF2 is that game. Far too often, it is fiddly mostly for fiddliness sake, and not because it offers any real variety in how you gestalt your character's personality.

Ya, I don't agree at all. It offers some choices, and the monsters are much more interesting to run then 5e.

 

[Campbell]

If the designers meant for PF2E to be a 4 core book game then that is one pretty stupid commercial decision. I'm sure they have heard of and understand the concept of Barrier to Entry, haven't they?

Not core as in necessary, but core in the sense of being central to the experience of the game as they envision it. You can totally play a game with just the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, but the expectation is that most groups will graduate to the Gamemastery Guide and Advanced Player's Guide over time.

The Gamemastery Guide is largely focused on more advanced GM techniques and designing material for your own game including monsters, magic items, more detailed adventures, and campaigns. It will cover magic items like artifacts, intelligent items, cursed items, and relics that are more appropriately handled by someone who already has some GM experience. It also goes into detail on how to hack the game including several variants that dramatically alter how the game is played. It will also have subsystems for things like dueling and chases with guidance on how to design subsystems for your game.

The Advanced Player's Guide was where First Edition Pathfinder really became Pathfinder TM. It introduced classes like the Alchemist, Oracle, Witch, and Summoner that become part of what made the game different from Dungeons and Dragons. This time around we are getting classes like the Investigator, Swashbuckler, Oracle, and Witch that they plan to really stretch the design space of the new game with. There will be new ancestries including some heritages like the aasimar and dhampir that are meant to be grafted onto any other ancestry. It will also introduce archetypes beyond the multi-class archetypes found in the core rulebook that allow players to customize their characters in ways that stretch beyond the core competencies of their classes. This sort of material is best utilized by players who have some play time under their belt. It's also the sort of material Pathfinder veterans are waiting for.

They are pretty much assuming most groups will eventually get this material because that is how it worked in First Edition. Pathfinder has always been a game that focused on deep rather than broad engagement.

 

[gss000]

Well, maybe, maybe not: Amazon isn't the whole story, and they are a small independently owned company, so they need less.

Kind of startling to check and see that PF2 sales have now slipped further down again from this morning, though...

Amazon isn't the whole story, but the trend is important more than the number itself. Unless someone does release all of the info, the Amazon numbers are a good proxy, like Mona wrote on Redditt. The actual number isn't so important as the trend and the change.

In this case, because of the subscription service and the difference between the Core Rulebook and every other P2 product, what I guess is that the Amazon numbers are showing interest of new or casual Pathfinder players. Those are more likely to go to Amazon rather than Paizo's website, and they may not have a FLGS. It's not a perfect analog, but an indicator.

Yes, they need less sales, but they need some level to sustain the line. Even if they have more revenue than ever, it still may not be enough if new people aren't coming in. Once other proxies come in from the other aggregators and online game sites, we probably will have a better idea.

 

[Melfast]

I was listening to one of the Paizo panels from GenCon today on YouTube, and I think they said that they see four books being the base for most games: the CRB, the APG, and the two Bestiaries. The CRB and the APG provide a critical mass of player options, and the two bestiaries should include enough creatures to allow GM's to convert almost all the old modules by replacing the creatures and using the standard difficulty tables in the CRB to update the DC's in the old adventures.

 

[ikos]

Ya, I don't agree at all. It offers some choices, and the monsters are much more interesting to run then 5e.

I'm finding truth in both you and Zapps' assertions:

PF2 is way to fiddly for it own good. Not unlike the playtest, making a character involves many meaningless choices. The feeling is not unlike being in a cereal aisle debating which variety of toasted flakes suits my fancy. They are all about the same, certainly nothing worth taking any serious amount of time deciding. The insignifigance of many choices makes the process less engaging than PF1 while remaining a longer process than 5E.

Yes, some of the choices in PF2 do matter, but not nearly enough to justify the time sink involved for many players with a life outside gaming and optimization boards. The monsters do absolutely shine though and the system itself does what I suspect it as designed to do - offer many options in core without any combination of them causing the system to crash. Agreed, give me Paizo's beasts, or those found in 3rd party 5e add-ons, any day of the week over the blandness of the standard monsters provided by 5e. Their blandess is eclipsed only by their non-threating nature at higher levels.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

I'm finding truth in both you and Zapps' assertions:

PF2 is way to fiddly for it own good. Not unlike the playtest, making a character involves many meaningless choices. The feeling is not unlike being in a cereal aisle debating which variety of toasted flakes suits my fancy. They are all about the same, certainly nothing worth taking any serious amount of time deciding. The insignifigance of many choices makes the process less engaging than PF1 while remaining a longer process than 5E.

Yes, some of the choices in PF2 do matter, but not nearly enough to justify the time sink involved for many players with a life outside gaming and optimization boards. The monsters do absolutely shine though and the system itself does what I suspect it as designed to do - offer many options in core without any combination of them causing the system to crash. Agreed, give me Paizo's beasts, or those found in 3rd party 5e add-ons, any day of the week over the blandness of the standard monsters provided by 5e. Their blandess is eclipsed only by their non-threating nature at higher levels.

The monsters in the 5e Monster Manual may not be exciting but monster design has continued to improve. Books like Volo's Guide, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica all demonstrate an evolving design method.

The idea that official 5e monsters are unexciting is becoming a thing of the past - to keep trotting out this idea is disingenuous.

 

[darjr]

It’s true, better and better!

Some of the new things are also subtle but great in play.