Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[Porridge]

So, I've made some charts.

Chart #1: Reported PF2 Core Book Amazon Rankings, as reported in this thread (and where there were multiple reports in the same day, I took the best sales number). Unfortunately the representation here isn't what I'd prefer, as the "higher" it goes up, the "worse" the sales because it reflects the worse sales rank of a higher number. Maybe someone can tell me how to flip that, or I could just make them negative numbers if I have to. Also, people stopped reporting sales rank numbers so we have far fewer data points for 2020 than we did in 2019. Maybe someone knows how to find that data?

Yes, I do!

Go to this website, and in the "ASIN" blank enter the number: 1640781684. That'll give you the daily Amazon rank of the PF2 core rulebook for the last two years. (It'll also give you the lowest FBA price each day, and the lowest price with shipping each day.)

Here's the full graph:

For reference: the graph starts in April 2019, the low point on the left is July 2019 (release date), and the upward bump in in the middle starts in March 2020 (onset of the pandemic).

 

[Retreater]

Not really surprising. 5e put Paizo between a rock and a hard place. They had a couple unpleasant options:
-Become a 5e OGL-based 3rd party, delivering primarily APs and monster books (massive staff cuts)
-Try to sustain PF1 forever (die by attrition)
-Make a new game (likely a flat step down in sales)

Well, making a new game isn't necessarily a bad thing - look at what D&D did with 5e. And they did it with a broad playtest and a mindset about bringing lapsed fans back into the hobby.
PF2 was a vanity project for their designers. They created the "game they wanted to play." And good for them, but it doesn't equate to pleasing a fanbase or making sales. Their playtest should've demonstrated the issues in the system, that it wasn't connecting to many players. Paizo didn't listen. This was the game they wanted to make.
And then they followed up with lousy adventures that did little to excite folks and a disappointing rules rollout on the biggest VTT during a pandemic when online is about the only way to play (and their first AP is still not available on there).

 

[darjr]

Yes, I do!

Go to this website, and in the "ASIN" blank enter the number: 1640781684. That'll give you the daily Amazon rank of the PF2 core rulebook for the last two years. (It'll also give you the lowest FBA price each day, and the lowest price with shipping each day.)

Here's the full graph:
View attachment 132561
For reference: the graph starts in April 2019, the low point on the left is July 2019 (release date), and the upward bump in in the middle starts in March 2020 (onset of the pandemic).

Thank you!!!! I’ve been
Looking for a camel replacement!!!!

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well, making a new game isn't necessarily a bad thing - look at what D&D did with 5e. And they did it with a broad playtest and a mindset about bringing lapsed fans back into the hobby.

What WotC did with 5e was make the successor to 3rd edition that the market embraced. Paizo isn't able to do that, because D&D isn't their product. Pathfinder's identity is, "3.5 Lives Thrives!" They built their entire brand around somebody else's product identity, which always meant that they were going to lose market share whenever WotC got its crap together and started listening to customers. Paizo's fundamental problem isn't that it didn't do enough playtesting of PF2, or screwed up its VTT rollout. Their fundamental problem is that 3.5 is dead, because 5e killed it.

Their original market was a large group of people who had rejected 4e as a valid successor to 3.5. That market is basically gone (not that their players are gone; there's just no large pool of "people who completely reject the current edition of D&D as a valid successor to the games of yore" to sell into). So their chosen strategy is to go after people who want to play a game that is like D&D, but different on a technical level, which is the same market 13th Age and Dungeon World were targeted at.

IMO they should have ditched Golarion (aka "Like your favorite D&D settings...but different!") and made a game with a steampunk, dieselpunk, sci fi, or post-apocalyptic setting. There's more growth potential in developing your own product identity than continually trying to eat somebody else's scraps.

 

[kayman]

I thank Paizo for this wonderful game ... IMHO PF2 is the best version of the D20 system ever made... I say this in a GM perspective , never i found myself enjoying gm so much as in the PF2 system ...I run Age of Ashes , PFS scenarios and now Abomination Vaults and the experience has been a blast .. once again thanks Paizo for this game .... I will buy everithing from you ... and by the way ... the world of Golarion is the best .
Sorry for my bad english....

 

[Justice and Rule]

The relevant comparison is that both PF1 are being played significantly more than PF2. They pulled the 4E trick of losing the larger portion of their audience, without brining in more new players.

PF1 has had 10 years of entrenchment and the system was founded on the idea that they weren't going to leave a certain system; people who stuck with PF through 5E probably weren't leaving it anyways. I think @fearsomepirate got it right with his three choices.

2. Declining share on Roll20

Clarification: in the Orr Reports, PF2 has been rising each time. PF1 has been declining.

 

[Porridge]

And then they followed up with lousy adventures that did little to excite folks and a disappointing rules rollout on the biggest VTT during a pandemic when online is about the only way to play (and their first AP is still not available on there).

Just to address this last point, since it suggests a confusion about Paizo's role in VTT implementation that seems to come up often.

The relationship between Paizo and Roll20 is a lot like the relationship between Paizo and Barnes & Noble.

Paizo would love to have Barnes & Noble stock all of their books. But it's not Paizo's choice. It's Barnes & Noble's. And while Paizo could theoretically try to apply pressure to Barnes & Noble -- refuse to sell any books to them unless they stocked all of their books? -- they don't really have the leverage to do so. And attempting to do so would just hurt them (by not having any of their books sold by Barnes & Noble).

Likewise, Paizo would love to have Roll20 provide competent and up-to-date support for their ruleset and conversions of their modules. But it's not Paizo's choice. It's Roll20's. And while Paizo could theoretically apply pressure to Roll20 -- refuse to let them do any conversions of their modules unless they did it for all of them, and provided more up-to-date support? -- they don't really have the leverage to do so. And attempting to do so would just hurt them (by not having any Roll20 support at all).

Now, devoting the employee resources required to provide reasonable support for Paizo products is certainly something Roll20 could do -- Fantasy Grounds has had no problem keeping pace. And Pathfinder fans (of both editions) have been complaining about Roll20's poor support for ages. But, again, there really isn't anything Paizo can do about it.

 

[JmanTheDM]

Counter Argument:
did anyone read the latest paizo blog post about recent hiring's and promotions Paizo People, February 2021

13 new hires
13 title changes and promotions

while there is no way to know if new hires = growth or replacement, seeing things like:
Senior Editor to Managing Editor
Data Entry Clerk to Financial Operations Specialist
Editor to Senior Editor
Warehouse Associate to Warehouse Distribution Lead
Editor to Senior Editor
Warehouse Associate to Logistics Coordinator
Customer Service Representative to Customer Service Lead

in my mind would generally indicate promotions = higher payroll costs.

this blog post does not feel like a struggling organization. this feels like a company that's moving forward.

but who knows, marketing, amirite?

Cheers,

J.

 

[kayman]

... I dont know anything about sales and stuff... but as GM i think PF2 is huge improvement and is reason that i think the game will thrive... The fact that the monster is structure in a simple and diferent way than the PCS is wonderful for the gm , every monster is unique , easy to run and with unique abilities ...

 

[kayman]

As for VTTs ... Foundry is the best VTT for Pathfinder 2e. ( my past experiences is with Roll20 and Astral) ...