Reliable debate

[Duelpersonality]

I have a question on how people here run the reliable keyword when a power has both a primary and secondary attack (like Venomous Sting, the Dread Fang daily attack in Martial Power). It has yet to come up but I'd like to be prepared.

My initial reaction is to only allow the power to be kept if the primary attack is missed, however I can see the other side of the coin:

Reliable: If you miss when using a reliable power, you don’t expend the use of that power.

Technically if you hit with the primary attack, you could still miss with a secondary attack, and reliable doesn't state that you have to miss with all attacks. I can see a rules lawyer having a field day with this one, and I want to get some opinions (or even a definitive answer from WotC if one exists).

 

[Lakoda]

If your the DM the rules lawyer can talk until he is blue in the face, it is your game and you decide.

To actually address your question; I think it is not so much about the strict interpretation of the rule in this case. WotC has said on many occasions that they did not give all the answers in the rules and that the DM will have to make some decisions - they did so to keep the rules lighter then 3.5 and easier to pick up and learn. Anyways, in this case the RAR is ambiqous. Even if you miss with the secondary attack you also did not miss witht the primary attack.

Given all this I would make my ruling on what the intention of the rule was. In this case it was to privide daily powers without miss damage or some other effect a away to be less risky. So if you hit with the primary, in my opinion, you have hit with the power and therefore you secondary attack(s) do(es) not matter in regard to the reliable keyword.

 

[Caliban]

If you hit with any of the attacks the power grants, then you did not miss with the power.

 

[GorTeX]

you should check the errata..er..updates..as the text for reliable has changed.

Player ’s Handbook, page 55
Replace text with “Reliable: If you don’t hit when using a reliable power, you don’t expend the use of that power.”

So, if you hit with any part of the power, you can't use the reliable keyword..you have to miss all attacks to keep the power.

 

[Duelpersonality]

If your the DM the rules lawyer can talk until he is blue in the face, it is your game and you decide.

I am, and I've seen it happen (actually purple, which caused him to no longer be a part of my games).

To actually address your question; I think it is not so much about the strict interpretation of the rule in this case. WotC has said on many occasions that they did not give all the answers in the rules and that the DM will have to make some decisions - they did so to keep the rules lighter then 3.5 and easier to pick up and learn. Anyways, in this case the RAR is ambiqous. Even if you miss with the secondary attack you also did not miss witht the primary attack.

Given all this I would make my ruling on what the intention of the rule was. In this case it was to privide daily powers without miss damage or some other effect a away to be less risky. So if you hit with the primary, in my opinion, you have hit with the power and therefore you secondary attack(s) do(es) not matter in regard to the reliable keyword.

Which is how I'll end up ruling it. I haven't been terribly active in the forums or with general news here or at the Wizard's main site in quite some time and was just looking for some confirmation.

you should check the errata..er..updates..as the text for reliable has changed.

Gracias, GorTeX. Should have checked there first.

 

[Lakoda]

Bah, I should have check the updates...oh well, good catch GorTeX.

I am, and I've seen it happen (actually purple, which caused him to no longer be a part of my games).

Ouch, I'd hate to see that happen.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Ouch, I'd hate to see that happen.

It was particularly bad that night, to the point that it's the first and last time I've ever had to tell a player "because it's my game and I say so." Thankfully my current group is a lot more laid back so these kinds of arguments don't really happen at the table, but it has taught me to come prepared when I see a corner case.

 

[BobTheNob]

It was particularly bad that night, to the point that it's the first and last time I've ever had to tell a player "because it's my game and I say so." Thankfully my current group is a lot more laid back so these kinds of arguments don't really happen at the table, but it has taught me to come prepared when I see a corner case.

Lol (and I mean Lol)
Our group dates back pre puberty and we are all now fathers! (thats how long we have been playing). I have had this happen in the past with people who are no longer part of the group, but the ones who are left (7 of us all up) are mature enough to understand that GM's say is final. Thank god!