reliable how good? Forked Thread: Brutal Strike: not expended on miss?

[keterys]

You don't think the ability to reuse a failed daily power is any good?

It's good, but it's also good to finish your action and move onto the next. It makes you happier to not have "wasted" the power, though, so while there are pros and cons to reliable vs half damage, and it gets more complex when you consider powers that do odd things on miss, when we're talking about Brute Strike it's mostly a feel good thing.

 

[Xyl]

What would you think if Brute Strike said this instead?

Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage
Miss: Your next basic melee attack that hits deals an extra 2[W] damage.

That's almost the same as the effect of reliable, and makes the costs and benefits clearer. (No nitpicking about opportunity attacks.)

 

[James McMurray]

What would you think if Brute Strike said this instead?

Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage
Miss: Your next basic melee attack that hits deals an extra 2[W] damage.

That's almost the same as the effect of reliable, and makes the costs and benefits clearer. (No nitpicking about opportunity attacks.)

Add "before the end of your next turn" and then maybe. It'd be really nice with a warlord around.

 

[Solodan]

Mathematically, it seems a wash. 1/2 damage conserves actions and lets you do more things.

Reliable has a "feel good" factor that is really hard to quantify. We all know that in 4E, it is possible to miss with all your encounters/dailies in an encounter, or to miss with all your dailies in a sitting. This would be pretty rare in 3.x. Reliable allows players to avoid feeling like the dice screwed them. Also, they tend to have benefits that are required on hit, often a healing surge, that often needs to be used.

The reliable keyword, in my eyes, isn't very powerful at all, but is a really well designed mechanice for the game overall.

 

[The Sword 88]

It might not be that powerful but like Solodan said it's just nice because it kind of sucks to miss with your big attack and reliable helps with that.

 

[Cadfan]

Reliable has a couple of advantages.

First, some reliable powers have other effects besides damage. Being sure to receive them is often worth a lot. Consider Comeback Strike or Victorious Surge, which guarantee that eventually you will get the benefit of a healing surge.

Second, non reliable daily powers often put you on the spot. The "half damage on a miss" usually doesn't include giving you whatever cool non damage effect the power has, so you really, really don't want to miss. So most players have to find ways to spike their to-hit bonus when they use these powers. For example, a Warlord is unlikely to use Lead the Attack until he's reasonable sure it will work. There are ways to help make this possible, such as flanking or feats like Action Surge, but there are few guarantees. A reliable power doesn't require any of this effort. You just use it when you please.

3. Sometimes half damage isn't valuable to you. Against a large Solo foe with a lot of hit points, overall damage per round matters. But against smaller foes, you might be looking for the big hit. You may be in a position where you'd prefer to hit the target big this round because you might drop it this round, but if it doesn't work, you'd rather not waste a daily power. A Reliable power is perfect for these situations.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Reliable is certainly better than not reliable. A reduced effect on a miss is statistically as good or better, and conserves actions, but it doesn't leave you with the option to bust out the same daily in a later encounter. A reliable power is a good choice when you want to put some real hurt on a foe, but are still unsure of it's AC or unable to generate much in terms of situational attack bonuses. If you hit, great, you did the damage, if you miss, you get the same benefit as 'feeling him out' with an at-will attack of the same hit probability, at the same cost (one standard action).

A half-damage power is also a good choice when you can't be confident of hitting, but it's better if you really /need/ to put at least some damage on the target, like a beefed-up Reaping Strike.

Both are clearly superior to an otherwise similar power that is wasted on a miss.


I guess, in general, a realiable power is a better choice early in a tough combat, while the half-damage power is a better choice late in a difficult combat. Reliable conserves your future options, reduced-effect-on-miss conserves your actions.

 

[Stalker0]

There's another factor people have not considered, the phenomena known as "buff the daily!"

This involves the party working together to make sure a daily hits. Aid another, clerical attack buffs, action point with action surge, elven reroll....all things that go into ensuring the dailies hit as often as possible. Thing is, its much easier to buff the attack once a fight then it is twice. If I miss the first time with reliable, I'm probably going to have a much weaker attack bonus next time. But with another power, all of the power is right up front with a big attack bonus.

So that's another nudge to non reliable attacks.

 

[MarkB]

There's another factor people have not considered, the phenomena known as "buff the daily!"

This involves the party working together to make sure a daily hits. Aid another, clerical attack buffs, action point with action surge, elven reroll....all things that go into ensuring the dailies hit as often as possible. Thing is, its much easier to buff the attack once a fight then it is twice. If I miss the first time with reliable, I'm probably going to have a much weaker attack bonus next time. But with another power, all of the power is right up front with a big attack bonus.

So that's another nudge to non reliable attacks.

Only to some extent. Even if you can't buff the attack the second time, that's still a second chance for it to hit and deal full damage (and a third, fourth, etc. if you still miss). If you buff the non-reliable daily and still miss, then half effect is the best you can hope for.

 

[Gloombunny]

There's another factor people have not considered, the phenomena known as "buff the daily!"

This involves the party working together to make sure a daily hits. Aid another, clerical attack buffs, action point with action surge, elven reroll....all things that go into ensuring the dailies hit as often as possible. Thing is, its much easier to buff the attack once a fight then it is twice. If I miss the first time with reliable, I'm probably going to have a much weaker attack bonus next time. But with another power, all of the power is right up front with a big attack bonus.

So that's another nudge to non reliable attacks.

The powers that most benefit from that sort of buffing are the ones that have little or no effect on a miss but compensate with a really strong hit effect. When the choice is between reliable or half-on-miss, I don't see that the availability of buffing much favors one over the other.