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reliable how good? Forked Thread: Brutal Strike: not expended on miss?


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Andur

First Post
The answer lies in what you are trying to hit. With a 50% chance to hit it is as good as the 1/2 damage powers. If the chance to hit falls below 40% then it is decent for an encounter power. However as soon as it goes above 75% chance to hit it is far better than the 1/2 damage powers.

Reliable is a variable power power based upon your chance to hit.
 

James McMurray

First Post
Also, damage dealt isn't the only factor. For instance, Brute Strike and Comeback strike deal 3[W] and 2[W] (plus you surge). They're also reliable. The alternative, Villain's Menace, deals 2[W] and gives you a bonus to hit and damage. If you miss you get a smaller bonus, and no damage. Which is best? It depends on the character and the group.

A fighter maxed for defense who is the only real defender in his party is probably better off with comeback Strike, as it lets him hurt the foe and stay on his feet. A fighter geared at beating his enemies to death with a Maul is going to do major damage on a hit, often enough that the +2/+4 from Villainou's Menace is unnecessary.

A fighter geared towaords mobility (especially a multiclassed ranger) will be beefy with Villain's Strike + Twin Strike. Villain's Strike is probably also going to be best against solo monsters, but subpar against hordes of standard beasts.

Without Reliable the answer would be more clear. But the reliable keyword puts those powers on equal footing IMO.
 

Kraydak

First Post
The answer lies in what you are trying to hit. With a 50% chance to hit it is as good as the 1/2 damage powers. If the chance to hit falls below 40% then it is decent for an encounter power. However as soon as it goes above 75% chance to hit it is far better than the 1/2 damage powers.

Reliable is a variable power power based upon your chance to hit.

The value of reliable depends both on your to-hit chance and on the abilities you will use after the reliable ability gets used up. In general, reliable is slightly worse than 1/2 effect on miss. (to determine the power of reliable, note that you can explore probability space by feeding the *same* set of attack rolls to a 1/2 damage on miss+at will pair of abilities and to a reliable+at will pair of abilities. Then the only types of sets of rolls we need consider: all attacks miss and the first attack misses and there is at least one hit.)
 

Shabe

First Post
I wonder just how good the reliable keyword is. Is it too good for encounter powers? is it as powerful as 1/2 dam on a miss?

Heres a short breakdown addressing reliable vs 1/2 damage on a miss.

Reliable Pros
Becomes better against monsters with Resist versus your attack
Does more damage, meaning if the monster is near bloodied it spends less time at bloodied, possibly making it weaker
More chances of getting a crit with your power. x/20 * y (x being # of numbers you hit on, y being times you missed) instead of 1/20 (given a crit on a 20), meaning it does more damage. eg; 50% chance to hit over two turns you get 2/20 or a 1/10 chance of critting with your reliable power, as opposed to a 1/20 chance.
Always carries out the Hit: line.

1/2 Damage on miss Pros
You don't have to waste another action to get half damage.
Still whittles the monster down, possibly bloodying it to make it weaker, allowing other chars to finish with at wills.
Better against monsters with vulnerability (If you can take advantage of it).
Better against monsters with higher ACs against the defence.
 
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Pickles JG

First Post
Reliable also works well c/f half on miss with hammer rhythm & scimitar dance but is otherwise as said slightly inferior to 1/2 damage on miss.

I would like to know which is better - reliable with a rider on hit like Comeback Strike or no damage on miss with effect:you can heal like eg Stand the Fallen Warlord 9 IIRC.

I think the latter must be better & are certainly more "leader" like though you are comparing apples & oranges.
 



Cadfan

First Post
Ok... lets just look at Brute Strike, since it does nothing but damage (if there are other effects, having these be Reliable might be more important than sheer damage). And we'll use a maul wielded by a strength 18 fighter with weapon focus- hammers.

Suppose we're designing this power, and we're deciding whether to make it Reliable, or Miss: Half. The power otherwise remains as is. Also assume a typical fighter hits 50% of the time when using this power, because its usually used against higher level foes.

The expected damage on a hit is 6d6+5, which equals 26.

If the power is Miss: Half, the overall expected damage is 19.5, because there's a 50% chance of hitting and getting an average of 26, and a 50% chance of missing and getting an average of 13. Next round, you won't have Brute Strike anymore, so you'll use Reaping Strike for an average damage of 2d6+5=13, with a 50% chance of hitting, and 4 damage on a miss. I'll spare you the math, but your total expected damage over two rounds comes out to 28. If we took it to three rounds, it would move to 36.5.

If the power is Reliable, the expected damage is just 13. But, on a miss, you can use it again the following round instead of whatever else you were planning to use (still using Reaping Strike here). Your expected damage over two rounds will equal, in total, 23.825. If we took it to three rounds, we'd get 32.45.

If we were to continue forecasting and check three round damage and four round damage, the more rounds we considered the closer they would become. They wouldn't necessarily ever meet, however.

I'm not sure what conclusions you should draw from this, since the better Reliable powers have secondary effects.
 

MarkB

Legend
It is indeed difficult to draw conclusions based on the damage alone.

Since a Daily power will generally be used against either an opponent who is significantly stronger than average, or who poses an immediate threat that can't be countered with a lesser power, the opportunity cost of a complete miss may be significant. On a reduced-effect miss, you are at least having some effect that round.

"Better than nothing, but worse than a half-damage miss" seems like a reasonable conclusion in most cases.
 

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