Remember Kits?

[Orius]

Feats, skills, and the 3e multiclassing rules have all but eliminated the need for class kits.

In 2nd edition, all members of the fighter class were basically the same, seperated only by how they'd spent their proficency points and ability scores.

In 3e, members of the fighter class can be radically different depending on which feats they'd invested in. A fighter could be a lightly-armored fencer, a spiked chain "tripper", a specialist in mounted warfare, a dedicated archer, a plate-mail wearing heavy footman who carries a greataxe, etc.

And prestige classes only further customizability options. With all these features, I don't really see a need to return to the days of class kits.

I generally agree. Back in the later days of 2e, about 5 or 6 years or so ago, I tried putting together a sort of Unified System of Kits. At this point, I had aquired most of the class books, as well as the entire PO rules (including the DM Option: High Level Campaigns book). With those books, as well as about 2 or 3 dozen issues of Dragon, and some other suppliments and campaign specific material, I had a lot of NWPs and kits spread out over a fairly extensive 2e library. I had no intention of throwing the CPHB style kits out in favor of the PO kits, so I wanted to merge the two kit systems. Part of this was because I had completely adopted the PO NWP system (far better than 2e core). In PO, it was cheaper to purchace NWPs that were related to kits, and I liked that rule, and wanted to adopt it to all kits. However, I never got much farther than compiling a list of NWPs. Once 3e came along, I abandoned that work, because 3e did what I liked in a much smoother way than trying to unify 2e.

Mostly correct. The availability of feats and the selection of skills does end the need for most of the old kits. However, PrC's do nothing WRT kits, because kits were applied at 1st level and defined the character from there on, whereas PrC's are something you must work up to.

Well, some of the old kits were heavily front-loaded (cough, bladesinger). PrCs are an improvement over those kits, since you actually have to train, and often develop skills and feats. For example, the bladesinger used a fighting style which required a lot of practice. It was a great concept, but very badly executed as a kit, since the player got all the benefits at first level. That's why it was so hated, as well as the fact that it was just broken. By contrast, I really haven't read any complaints from 3e DMs about the bladesinger PrC. I think that's because the player has to first multi as an elf figher/wizard or take a few levels of bard or any other level advancement that would fit the class ability requirements, as well as take certain feats and train skills to a certain level. So bladesingers aren't front-loaded (and not as over-powered either), and they do have to go through some amount of training. And a bad kit became a good PrC.

In any case, I see three types of 2e kits, WRT how they can be applied to a 3e game.

First are the ones that are pretty much ale (edit: ale? ALE? That's a typo, and I can't remember what the hell I was trying to say) to be emulated with the right skills and feats. These are like the real basic kits that had several versions in the various brown books (and some later showed up in S&P). These are kits like nobles, peasants, outlaws, and so on. These need neither core or prestige classes. All the player has to do is look at the recommended proficiency lists to see what kind of skills the character might have, use the kits as a sort of guide to select equipment for the PC and so on.

Second are the kits that are perfect for PrCs. This includes stuff like bladesingers. If there isn't a PrC that corresponds to the old kits, then the DM should write one up, if he's willing to use it. This is great for the front-loaded kits that were overpowered at 1st level in 2e, but wouldn't be too bad if the character leveled to meet the requirements for the kit.

Last are the kits that were more than just a variant on an existing class, but a seperate class altogether. Al-Qadim's sha'ir is a perfect example, as they're not really a wizard variant, but a more unique spellcaster. These probably work best with new core classes, and that's how the sha'ir was handled (and fairly well) in Dragon #315.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

First are the ones that are pretty much ale (edit: ale? ALE? That's a typo, and I can't remember what the hell I was trying to say) to be emulated with the right skills and feats.

Sounds like... able.

 

[hong]

Hong...

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

I'm all mellow now.

 

[Orius]

Sounds like... able.

Um, yeah , I guess you're right.

Wait a minute.....

Get back here with my brain!!!!!111!!!!!!1!

 

[Altalazar]

I liked the kits. While I don't recall that I ever used one, several of my players did. Two different variations on the Swashbuckler - though the thief version was somewhat weak, IMO. And a witch kit actually turned out to work rather well (with some modifications). I think I added an extra big level boost (like the one it already had, only double) for Halloween.

I am not sure it would work really well for 3E - here, we have so many different options, plus the PrC thrown in. I think it is unnecessary. But I liked the concept.

 

[danzig138]

The 3E mentality is that RP and Rules are seperate and should not be interlinked.

I believe the idea is that mechanical benefits/drawbacks should not be balanced by role-playing drawbacks/benefits. In wihch case, I don't understand the point of your example.

 

[apsuman]

That is a problem with some Kits, but there are problems with PrCs, such as having to wait until at least 5 levels to take a level in one. Besides, I have already said that I'm not looking to wholesale ditch certain D20 mechanics for Kits. In fact, I'm not all that keen on cut-n-pasting Kits into D20. I'm looking for examples of Kit-like innovations that don't have the cumbersomeness of existing D20 mechanics.

Just start everyone at second level.

then you can have a multiclass combo to fit any style you want.

Sneaky Figher? FTR /ROG
Arcane fighter? FTR/WIZ
Street Fighter? BAR/ROG
Woodsy healer? RNG/CLR

There's you solution.

 

[sledged]

Specialty Priests and Character Rolls

I don't know about that so much. For one thing, a PrC doesn't have to start at 7th level, domain powers do offer some nice variety (as do feats and skill selections), and it's easy enough to envision that the first few levels of being a cleric are relatively basic, educational ones in which the character is very low in the hierarchy and not very conversant with the secrets of the faith.

What I miss about specialty priests is that each type was essentially a difference class whose spell selections and granted powers reflected their religions and gods. While domains and PrCs allow a certain level variation between clerics, it doesn't offer the same amount that specialty priests did. Priests of two different gods with different portfolios should be as different as druids and clerics. The difference between those two classes even at first level is very obvious.

In 2E some priests didn't have the turn/command undead ability. Some couldn't cast healing spells. Some could only cast the reverse of certain spells. Some of the specialty priests of the gods of magic had spellbooks and could prepare wizard spells in place of priest spells. Specialty priests of Mask had thieving skills. Specialty priests of Mielikki were rangers instead of priests. And the 'all' sphere was only group of spells to which all priests had access, and that sphere had all of about five spells. Even then I once made a specialty priest that didn't use spells at all, but gained extra granted powers instead.

You can't make that kind of variation with a cleric in 3E. No matter what domains are picked, or PrC levels are gained, all clerics can spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells. All clerics have the turn/rebuke undead ability. And there's a wide range of spells to which every cleric has access. Domain spells only add a slight variation in spell selection and granted powers, and even with domain spells, a cleric can only use a domain slot to prepare one.

The only way a PrC could fill the role of specialty priests is to allow a cleric to trade in his levels, abilities, and spell selections as a cleric like the blackguard lets a character trade in paladin levels. Though I think in order to optimize the creation of such a PrC, divine spells would have to utilize the 2E concept of spell spheres instead of the one-spell-per-spell-level domain concept.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I've got to agree that kits are unnecessary considering the flexibility that starting feats give you. A 1st level human fighter with the feats of Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid shot is going to be totally different from a 1st level human fighter with Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder. If you want kits look at Skull & Bones. Basically, the kit was paid for with skill points but the trade off was flexibility for more points and feats than you'd otherwise have. You COULD make a Fighter with some skill points put into Profession: Sailor (cross class) or you could pay some of your skill points to have that skill added as a class skill along with some other skills that make you a better sailor. You may only have 4 skill points left to play with after you've paid for your background but you'll have a much better sailor than a straight up Fighter could ever make.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would NOT want that 3ed D&D Clerics of different deities were different classes, or had completely different abilities. However, I agree that Domains were a half-missed opportunities to differentiate them. The granted power makes some difference, let's say comparable to a single feat (x2 because they are two domains), but the spells don't make a huge difference: a good domains gives no more than 4-5 spells otherwise unavailable from the generic cleric spell list, and you can only have 1 slot/level to cast them.

I would have liked the Clerical spell list to be half as long, without all those spells that seem to specific to be available to ALL clerics. And instead I would have liked a domain spell list to give 1 NEW spell per level, with the possibility to prepare them also in the regular slots.