Remember Kits?

[hong]

Amen to that! PO: Skills and Powers was one of the most flawed and unbalanced products TSR produced, but at the same time, it made D&D fun again and stoked the imagination.

Edit: As for kits, well they got renamed. They're called "Prestige Classes" now.

Even D&D itself is not as bad on Real Men as it once was. The latest release of D&D has the potential of a roleplaying game worthy of any Real Man — unlimited hit dice, all classes gaining multiple attacks per round, and plenty of strange and arbitrary special abilities. If you ignore the fact that it contains skills like Diplomacy, Craft and Profession, 3rd Edition contains much can be appreciated by the Real Man. After all, there's no multiclassing limits, three-quarters of the core classes use spells, and the added bonus of the prestige class is thrown in — like having the best parts of kits and dual-classing in one place. To add to the fun, bonuses can have different types, so not only do you have to remember which numbers to add up, you have to remember which ones to throw away too.

-- from a web page somewhere

 

[jasamcarl]

-- from a web page somewhere

Sarcasm's Sarcasm-

"Finally, after years of dealing with the utter whimpitude of the cave drawing, we have the book. Real cavemen read books, with their long narratives and arguments that force you to retain abstract ideas and narratives. If that wasn't enough, you can also confuse yourself healthy trying to pick one out with all those newfangled 'titles' on the front cover, which, wouldn't you know it, come in many a different color. And if you still have excess testosterone running through ya, they weigh upwards of a pound!!!! The whimps would decry all this emphasis on 'reading' as straining to the point where it distracts one from the true joys of life, like sniffing your own poo, but no pain, no gain."

 

[hong]

Sarcasm's Sarcasm-

"Finally, after years of dealing with the utter whimpitude of the cave drawing, we have the book. Real cavemen read books, with their long narratives and arguments that force you to retain abstract ideas and narratives. If that wasn't enough, you can also confuse yourself healthy trying to pick one out with all those newfangled 'titles' on the front cover, which, wouldn't you know it, come in many a different color. And if you still have excess testosterone running through ya, they weigh upwards of a pound!!!! The whimps would decry all this emphasis on 'reading' as straining to the point where it distracts one from the true joys of life, like sniffing your own poo, but no pain, no gain."

Are you still crying, kid?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sarcasm's Sarcasm-

Are you still crying, kid?

[blink]

I'm not really sure what's going on, but just in case, I'm going to stand in the doorway tapping a ruler and looking stern.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Okay, check this out... And this is coming from a GM...

What a player can accomplish in theme with Multiclassing and Feats and Prestige Classes a Game Master is doubly able to accomplish.

Especially with Prestige Classes.

I don't disagree that it could be done. I just think that in some cases, to do so involves great unnecessarily complex steps, which in prior game editions were simpler.

The problem with Kits (even as you describe them in Red Steel) is that they have two draw backs: You are either locked on a path or penalized for drifting from that path.

That is a problem with some Kits, but there are problems with PrCs, such as having to wait until at least 5 levels to take a level in one. Besides, I have already said that I'm not looking to wholesale ditch certain D20 mechanics for Kits. In fact, I'm not all that keen on cut-n-pasting Kits into D20. I'm looking for examples of Kit-like innovations that don't have the cumbersomeness of existing D20 mechanics.

I am well aware that Kits have limitations. I have already said that some Kits were hit-or-miss. I don't desire to do everything that Kits were used to do. PrCs, Feats and Skills can often do that better, and in those cases, I intend to use them.

But not every old Kit makes sense as a PrC, new Class, Feats, or Skills.

Maybe an example of something where, IMO, a Kit handled it nicer. An example would be one where the full extent of the bonuses and hindrances were roleplaying in nature. Such as a Noble Kit, or Savage Kit.

If you're saying that you want PCs to trade-and-swap abilities, effectively becoming different characters from time to time instead of evolving over time, than I'd have to agree with you: d20 isn't that kind of system.

And please don't take offense, but I'm thankful for it.

In fact, no, I was not saying that, so I don't take offense.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Maybe an example of something where, IMO, a Kit handled it nicer. An example would be one where the full extent of the bonuses and hindrances were roleplaying in nature. Such as a Noble Kit, or Savage Kit.

I think here-in lies the problem. The 3E mentality is that RP and Rules are seperate and should not be interlinked. Granted, I think it's a load of horse feathers, and even the DMG points out that this is false: It gives an example that in the default environment, common folk are familiar with magic and should not be scared or shocked by it, therefore it would be improper to RP a person that is surprised by the presence of magic, either as a PC or NPC. Thus, how to RP the person is effected by the rules and the balance of those rules regardless of marketing statements to the contrary (or, as I have always put it, "The rules define the character's reality.").

Of course, this is all part of a system that is designed to allow folks to play without any role-play at all, and at least one of the "key" designers has proven to me more than once that he couldn't role-play his way out of a paper bag, but that's irrelevant (yet fun to say, anyway)...

That said, I think the only way to get what you're looking for is to design it yourself, although, technically, you are looking at something that grants bonuses to some Charisma/Wisdom Skills while simultaneously granting some Charisma/Wisdom Skills penalties, with some of these being situation-dependant, all the while not effecting anything else related to the character mechanically.

Not what you want? Probably not, but that's the way the system ticks.

 

[hong]

I think here-in lies the problem. The 3E mentality is that RP and Rules are seperate and should not be interlinked. Granted, I think it's a load of horse feathers, and even the DMG points out that this is false: It gives an example that in the default environment, common folk are familiar with magic and should not be scared or shocked by it, therefore it would be improper to RP a person that is surprised by the presence of magic, either as a PC or NPC. Thus, how to RP the person is effected by the rules and the balance of those rules regardless of marketing statements to the contrary (or, as I have always put it, "The rules define the character's reality.").

Bendy Nougat, what are you going on about now?

The DM may (or may not; that particular passage escapes the memory right now) say that in the default setting, people are familiar with magic. That's a statement about the _setting_, not the _rules_. All it means is that in Greyhawk (remember, D&D _does_ have a default setting, unlike something like GURPS or HERO), people behave in that manner. Once you learn the distinction between setting and rules, then all will become clear. Because there's nothing in the D&D/d20 _rules_ (roll d20 and add BAB to beat AC, fireballs get a Reflex save, etc etc etc) that mandates what any particular setting must be like.

If you're not using the default Greyhawk setting, you can have people in your own particular setting do anything you want. They could turn purple and explode when someone farts in their general direction. I don't care, and neither do the D&D rules.

Of course, this is all part of a system that is designed to allow folks to play without any role-play at all, and at least one of the "key" designers has proven to me more than once that he couldn't role-play his way out of a paper bag,

For certain values of "roleplay".

but that's irrelevant (yet fun to say, anyway)...

Just like "Bendy Nougat's shoulder chip is threatening to attain sentience and devour the world". That's irrelevant yet fun to say, too.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Oh, and ignore the troll with the meaningless opinion... He seems to be glad to disregard the information the DMG gives on page 160 under Magic explaining how people in a high magical setting (which the rules and balance of 3E are designed to produce) behave due to the undeniable presence of that magic. It's convienient for the troll to ignore this fact, for he has nothing to troll about if he doesn't, but the page and the information are there regardless of whether the troll wants it to be there or not, and thus it is easy to ignore the worthless chest-beating as the pointless trolling that it is if you read the page yourself.

 

[hong]

Oh, and ignore the troll with the meaningless opinion...

No, Bendy, this is not the way to try to get the last word.

He seems to be glad to disregard the information the DMG gives on page 160 under Magic explaining how people in a high magical setting (which the rules and balance of 3E are designed to produce) behave due to the undeniable presence of that magic.

It's reasonable to say that in a high-level by-the-book D&D campaign, there will be _some_ places in a D&D world that have a high incidence of magical effects. These places will be those close to where the PCs go, if only because of the anthropic principle (as applied to the protagonists in a flexible storytelling context). Now, you can extend this to apply to _all_ places in the D&D world, if that is so desired. However, dear Bendy, that remains under the full control of the DM, and so implying that the actions of the DM are somehow constrained by the rules is a fallacy.

It is doubly a fallacy, because there's no need for a D&D world to cater to high-level play. If you stick to low or mid-levels, you could conceivably have a full campaign where nobody (PC or NPC) sees anything more spectacular than a fireball every two sessions.

It is triply a fallacy, because you don't even _have_ to use dollops of bizarre monstrosities to challenge high-level PCs. While the MM lists dozens of high-CR monsters with funky abilities out the wazoo, you can achieve a similar end with high-level human NPCs, or with (huge) hordes of low-level cannon fodder.

Are you now satiated, dear Bendy, or would you like more?

It's convienient for the troll to ignore this fact, for he has nothing to troll about if he doesn't, but the page and the information are there regardless of whether the troll wants it to be there or not, and thus it is easy to ignore the worthless chest-beating as the pointless trolling that it is if you read the page yourself.

Are we having fun yet, Bendy?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Sigh...

If I must, I must...

No, Bendy, this is not the way to try to get the last word.

First, my name isn't "Bendy", nor is it "Bendy Nouget".

It is Bendris, Bendris Noulg, or, if you really want a shortened, you could try Ben.

"Bendy" would be a nickname. Nicknames are given to friends. You are not my friend, nor do you intend this to be a kind invitation to talk.

If my screen name is too difficult, you may try Jim or Jimmy.

If you feel like actually respecting your betters instead of being flippant, you may try Mr. Domsalla.

Otherwise, stick to Bendris.

After all, I'm not calling you Thong, no matter how tempting the urge.

It's reasonable to say that in a high-level by-the-book D&D campaign, there will be _some_ places in a D&D world that have a high incidence of magical effects.

Which is what the rules are designed to create and are balanced to produce. Sure, the DM can change the balance to feature less than the default amount, but that's exactly what the DM is doing: changing the set up of the game.

Are you sure you're trying to prove me wrong? Cause it sure seems the opposite...

These places will be those close to where the PCs go, if only because of the anthropic principle (as applied to the protagonists in a flexible storytelling context). Now, you can extend this to apply to _all_ places in the D&D world, if that is so desired. However, [Mr. Domsalla], that remains under the full control of the DM, and so implying that the actions of the DM are somehow constrained by the rules is a fallacy.

I would never indicate that the DM is constrained by the rules (although over-marketing of the term "balance" has led to plenty of DMs being constrained by their players to the rules, but that's another issue entirely).

It is doubly a fallacy, because there's no need for a D&D world to cater to high-level play. If you stick to low or mid-levels, you could conceivably have a full campaign where nobody (PC or NPC) sees anything more spectacular than a fireball every two sessions.

High Level has nothing to do with it, nor do spells more potent that fireball...

I'm in a city, here are low level Clerics, Wizards, Paladins, and Bards... They all use magic.

I'm in the wilderness, here are low level Druids, Adepts, Sorcerers, and Rangers... They all use magic.

Guess what? Where ever you go, there's magic at work. And level doesn't seem to be a major factor; the design of the classes is. The classes are part of the rules...

Still sure you're trying to prove me wrong, here?

It is triply a fallacy, because you don't even _have_ to use dollops of bizarre monstrosities to challenge high-level PCs. While the MM lists dozens of high-CR monsters with funky abilities out the wazoo, you can achieve a similar end with high-level human NPCs, or with (huge) hordes of low-level cannon fodder.

Well, aside from your own falacy of assuming high-level is my issue, you are actually right here...

Gee, you've finally amazed me.

Are you now satiated, [Mr. Domsalla], or would you like more?

More proof that I'm right? Bring it on... You're finally contributing to the boards in a constructive manner today, which is a most delightful surprise, and it would be nice to see more.