removed

[SteveC]

Thats a bit of a slippery slope. Even though its OGL is "free" for the d20 license, the True20 license and M&M Superlink license requires him to ask for permission/purchase the rights to use the license for distribution purposes. Thats where the legality issue lies since I'm willing to bet he did neither.


Licensing True20 <-- Pay attention to the note under item number two. In essence, a SRD file of True20 would violate that clause.

Uh, but if he uses the OGL properly, he doesn't need to worry about any other license. There's no slippery slope at all. If he wants to start using PI, that's when any other license matters.

I know that a lot of publishers don't like the notion that their products can be turned into an SRD, but as long as the SRD author uses the OGL properly, and the original authors declare the content open, it can be done. This isn't something I would actually recommend, mind you, because (for example) it can hurt Green Ronin on the bottom line, but it's also legal--as long as the OGL is followed.

--Steve

 

[Committed Hero]

Uh, but if he uses the OGL properly, he doesn't need to worry about any other license. There's no slippery slope at all. If he wants to start using PI, that's when any other license matters.

I know that a lot of publishers don't like the notion that their products can be turned into an SRD, but as long as the SRD author uses the OGL properly, and the original authors declare the content open, it can be done. This isn't something I would actually recommend, mind you, because (for example) it can hurt Green Ronin on the bottom line, but it's also legal--as long as the OGL is followed.

Exactly. GR can keep someone from advertising that a book is compatable with True20, but cannot prevent the author from publishing (indeed, republishing) all of the True 20 mechanics. If GR had wanted to do the latter, they should have limited the amount of open content to 5% of the core book.

 

[jaerdaph]

Just because you legally can publish and re-sell (or just give away) the entirety of someone else's OGC in one shot, doesn't mean that you should. Folks here claim to support Green Ronin and enjoy their products, but are really just screwing them over by doing this. All we are going to see is less and less OGC declaration from GR and other companies who see what is happening, and end up screwing ourselves.

If anything ever needed the Spirit of the OGL more it would be True20. Why not create new material for True20 and help expand the experience, rather than shoot it in the head?

Those who can, do. Those who can't, redistribute other people's OGC in its entirety.

 

[Committed Hero]

Just because you legally can publish and re-sell (or just give away) the entirety of someone else's OGC in one shot, doesn't mean that you should. Folks here claim to support Green Ronin and enjoy their products, but are really just screwing them over by doing this. All we are going to see is less and less OGC declaration from GR and other companies who see what is happening, and end up screwing ourselves.

If anything ever needed the Spirit of the OGL more it would be True20. Why not create new material for True20 and help expand the experience, rather than shoot it in the head?

Those who can, do. Those who can't, redistribute other people's OGC in its entirety.

I might agree if GR hadn't decided to charge folks for using the True20 license. Talk about bad mojo for the "Spirit of the OGL."

 

[philreed]

I might agree if GR hadn't decided to charge folks for using the True20 license. Talk about bad mojo for the "Spirit of the OGL."

They are charging for two things:

1. The use of their trademark.

2. The use of their time; approvals take time. And I think that after the d20 license many people would be happy to see GR taking the time to perform an approval process on True20-branded products.

People can publish products without the license, but they cannot use the trademark this way.

 

[jaerdaph]

I might agree if GR hadn't decided to charge folks for using the True20 license. Talk about bad mojo for the "Spirit of the OGL."

As a consumer, I like that they did that (charge money to use a logo or claim compatibility). It adds a level of quality control so that I am much less likely to get ripped off by crap product like I was in the early days of d20.

 

[Committed Hero]

I'm fine with a process for requiring approval, but charging for this "service" sticks out like a sore thumb in the Open Gaming era. Even Hasbro hasn't stooped to this level when it's encountered products that were distasteful in its eyes. Plus GR set a limit of six titles a year per publisher, which can cap the number of submissions they have to consider.

Given the amount of True20 products available from third parties, I think the market has spoken for itself. Consider their choice: make a d20 product for free and appeal to a conservative 75% of the d20 buying public, or pay for the right to restrict yourself to about 10%? Even the companies with a free pass have taken forever to release things!

Now consider that the license is yearly - does this mean that pdf products must go off the market once the license ends? So a publisher must choose between paying the $100 a year in the hopes that a release will still attract buyers 12 months out, or give up on their stuff entirely. How long a shelf life does a pdf product have? And the print license is $1000 a year! It would have made more sense to charge a listing fee to have a pdf appear at GR's True20 store or something - then at least publishers are getting some other tangible benefit than the use of the True20 logo.

I agree with everyone that True20 is good enough to deserve a chance. I wouldn't rail against the fee if I didn't feel strongly about it. It would be great to see it thrive, but I can't help but feel that GR has hurt it's chances by attaching a price tag.

 

[GMSkarka]

I wouldn't rail against the fee if I didn't feel strongly about it.

So let me get this straight: You're not a publisher, and hence the licensing policy in question doesn't affect you in any way, but you're up in arms about it....what, on our behalf?

As a publisher, I have no problem with GR's licensing policy for True20. It's smart. The rates charged are not high....but high enough to scare away amateurs who would stink up the joint with shoddy products.

"Feeling strongly about it", and "railing against the fee" makes no sense at all for a non-publisher, any more than it would make sense for me as an American citizen to complain about the UK Television License Fee....

 

[Urizen]

I'm fine with a process for requiring approval, but charging for this "service" sticks out like a sore thumb in the Open Gaming era. Even Hasbro hasn't stooped to this level when it's encountered products that were distasteful in its eyes. Plus GR set a limit of six titles a year per publisher, which can cap the number of submissions they have to consider.

It also makes publishers who have the license think more about what they are going to release; a good thing, IMHO.

Given the amount of True20 products available from third parties, I think the market has spoken for itself. Consider their choice: make a d20 product for free and appeal to a conservative 75% of the d20 buying public, or pay for the right to restrict yourself to about 10%? Even the companies with a free pass have taken forever to release things!

As owner of one of these companies with a Free Pass (which we all earned, BTW), I have an obligation to make my product the best it can be. If it takes a long time to get the product to the point where I'm comfortable releasing it, then so be it. I'm not going to push something through if I don't feel it's ready just because it's taken too long.

I apologize if that engenders any bad feelings, but I'm a small-press publisher who has a great many things going on my life, and I for one refuse to put anything out that I feel isn't up to my standards, those of Green Ronin, and most importantly, expectations of people who I hope will be purchasing the product/

Now consider that the license is yearly - does this mean that pdf products must go off the market once the license ends?

The license isn't yearly, it's a 3 year license.

 

[Committed Hero]

So let me get this straight: You're not a publisher, and hence the licensing policy in question doesn't affect you in any way, but you're up in arms about it....what, on our behalf?

Effectively I'm priced out of the market. I'd love to write espionage material for True20 (speaking of, hope you're feeling well and someday reconsider Omega Briefing -you thought my stuff was worth publishing ).

The license isn't yearly, it's a 3 year license.

Ah, that's not in the FAQ. I have no hard feelings about releases, and I know singling out any one company in the rpg industry for delays is - nor do I repudiate the work you did to win the prize (especially if it's worth $3k!). But I do wonder about the "head start" your books were supposed to get, since October 1 2006 has come and gone.

In fact, I'd love to know if GR has had any bites other than from the contest winners and Ronin Arts. Or whether the latter feels the cost was a good idea.