Removing Divine magic?

[S'mon]

There have of course been more saints created in the past 30 years than in all of prior history; each of whom has minimum 2 "verifiable miracles" to their name - I guess Earth's Magic Level must be increasing...

 

[S'mon]

Jesus was an avatar.

I thought avatars couldn't be Raised?

I'll shut up now...

 

[der_kluge]

Who indeed? It's a mystery!

Per the RAW you DO NOT NEED GODS TO HAVE "DIVINE" MAGIC. "Divine" in D&D is a purely arbitrary descriptor for the kind of magic used by half the spellcasting classes. You seem to be hung up on a defiinition of "divine magic" that includes the necessary existence of deities & foolproof knowledge of the supernatural. None of that is in the RAW description of divine magic.

Yes, that's true, but I'm not concerned with the RAW, I'm looking beyond that.

The game assumes availability of magic healing, restoration etc in its CR system and other areas. Eliminate divine spellcasters & you need to either make those spells available to arcane casters or change game assumptions re PC power, survivability etc.

Yes, this may be true, and that's why I'm asking if anyone has done this, and if so, what experience did they have with it? Personally, I'd like to see arcane casters, fighters, rogues, and then modify the bard to be more of a barber/historian role. I think that would work.

There have of course been more saints created in the past 30 years than in all of prior history; each of whom has minimum 2 "verifiable miracles" to their name - I guess Earth's Magic Level must be increasing...

Really? Maybe it's because the population is increasing. Anyone have any statistics with regards to the number of saints as a corollary to the population?

I thought avatars couldn't be Raised?

Not touching that with a 10' pole.

 

[Pants]

No, it's completely different. The nature of divine versus arcane magic is different in the context of medieval Europe. There was still *magic* in medieval Europe. In fact, I own a book called "A history of magic in medieval Europe". Arcane magic can be more subtle. It doesn't heal the sick and dying, it doesn't cure disease. It doesn't prolong life. It doesn't bring people back from the dead. Arcane magic can be witchcraft and sorcerery, and other mysterious things, all of which have a very unique, and very distinct role in medieval Europe.

Well.. in order to 'replicate' the superstitious nature of medieval 'magic' in our world, you'd have to redesign the Arcane classes too, because, face it, magic in D&D is far from subtle or mysterious. You can drop walls of pure iron on people, globe trot with teleportation magic, travel to other planes of existence ('Hey Zeus, how's it going?'), fabricate things out of thin air, drain the water from people's bodies, shoot mystical bolts of energy, throw balls of fire. Arcane magic in D&D is in your face, screaming like Gene Simmons.

Divine Magic MAY surely be a problem if you're trying to recreate a more superstitious world, but, IMO, not for the reasons you list. Arcane magic, as it is presented in D&D, would also be unfit for such a campaign.

They existed. People didn't come back from the dead. Clerics didn't cure people of the bubonic plague.

But people walked around throwing balls of fire?

Personally, though, I could see a world without Divine Magic (at all) working, if only you go through the steps. Suddenly, diseases, poisons, and wounds become much more dangerous, along with anything that has energy drain attacks. Threats that would be considered small problems in a normal D&D campaign would become much more difficult to deal with, even if you do have some sort of a field medic type class.

 

[S'mon]

1. Yes, this may be true, and that's why I'm asking if anyone has done this, and if so, what experience did they have with it? Personally, I'd like to see arcane casters, fighters, rogues, and then modify the bard to be more of a barber/historian role. I think that would work.

2. Really? Maybe it's because the population is increasing. Anyone have any statistics with regards to the number of saints as a corollary to the population?

2. There are about 100 times as many dead people in world history as people currently alive. The population of Europe is only (very roughly) about 10 times what it was 1000 years ago (Britain more, France less). You might expect the rate of saint creation to be 10 times what it was 1000 years ago, but it's far more than it, AFAIK it was a Vatican policy design to help spread the Catholic faith.

1. I've experimented with this, works fine for gritty low level swords & sorcery fantasy. Like I keep saying, at high levels there are mechanical problems with removing healing, restoration, divine buffs from core D&D; lots of d20 products do this but change other factors too - Conan & Slaine, Grim Tales are some I own personally. High level Core D&D w/out Clerics & Druids but with Bards could work but lots of CRs would need recalculating and you couldn't run published meatgrinder scenarios like WotC's Adventure Path.

 

[S'mon]

If you're asking how a setting changes sans divine magic; I have the problem that I create the setting first and alter rules to fit, you seem to think in terms of the ruleset defining the setting. A good example of a very D&D-like world sans Clerics & Druids is Lankhmar - Leiber's wizards cast Lightning Bolts & Magic Missiles (Swords of Lankhmar), Cloud Kill (Swords Against Deviltry) etc. Nehwon is a functional game (and literary) world because undead, demons and other Cleric-specific monsters are rare. It might be a good model for what you're looking for.

 

[der_kluge]

2. There are about 100 times as many dead people in world history as people currently alive. The population of Europe is only (very roughly) about 10 times what it was 1000 years ago (Britain more, France less). You might expect the rate of saint creation to be 10 times what it was 1000 years ago, but it's far more than it, AFAIK it was a Vatican policy design to help spread the Catholic faith.

1. I've experimented with this, works fine for gritty low level swords & sorcery fantasy. Like I keep saying, at high levels there are mechanical problems with removing healing, restoration, divine buffs from core D&D; lots of d20 products do this but change other factors too - Conan & Slaine, Grim Tales are some I own personally. High level Core D&D w/out Clerics & Druids but with Bards could work but lots of CRs would need recalculating and you couldn't run published meatgrinder scenarios like WotC's Adventure Path.

Uh... the Catholic church hasn't been around for the entirety of world history, and the number of dead people exceeding the number of living people is irrelevant, since what is only relevant is the number of people alive at the time when a saint is declared. Of course there will always be more dead people than living people, but that doesn't alter the ratio of saints to living people!

Yea, I agree this wouldn't work "as is" with high level D&D. It might work in Grim Tales, or HARP, though.

If you're asking how a setting changes sans divine magic; I have the problem that I create the setting first and alter rules to fit, you seem to think in terms of the ruleset defining the setting.[/quote

Yea, I guess I do. Or at least, I try to develop them simultaneously. I hadn't thought about it in those terms before, though. Interesting.

 

[der_kluge]

Well.. in order to 'replicate' the superstitious nature of medieval 'magic' in our world, you'd have to redesign the Arcane classes too, because, face it, magic in D&D is far from subtle or mysterious. You can drop walls of pure iron on people, globe trot with teleportation magic, travel to other planes of existence ('Hey Zeus, how's it going?'), fabricate things out of thin air, drain the water from people's bodies, shoot mystical bolts of energy, throw balls of fire. Arcane magic in D&D is in your face, screaming like Gene Simmons.

Divine Magic MAY surely be a problem if you're trying to recreate a more superstitious world, but, IMO, not for the reasons you list. Arcane magic, as it is presented in D&D, would also be unfit for such a campaign.

Well, I agree with what you're saying, but it's not exactly the point of this thread. What would such a world look like? That is, a world with arcane magic as is, and extremely limited, or non-existant divine magic? I think it's interesting to speculate about such a setting.

Suddenly, diseases, poisons, and wounds become much more dangerous, along with anything that has energy drain attacks. Threats that would be considered small problems in a normal D&D campaign would become much more difficult to deal with, even if you do have some sort of a field medic type class.

Exactly. And what would people think of the gods in such a world?