Removing Hit Points from the Game

[5ekyu]

"Another solution is to use something like the Mutants and Masterminds damage save, which seems to work well enough for super hero d20 games, but might require a lot more initial design changes to make balanced and workable."

Played damage save systems (and many others) in cyber and supers and fantasy. It works fine but its just as prone to not-quite-right and issues as others. Still its likely my favorite overall for ease and flexibility.

But, dont kid yourself. Any significant change to the HP dynamic has major ripples thru 5e. Anything is gonna be a ton of work.

But to get started and move forward with direction and purpose, you need to know what you want, not just malaise.

So, can you identify six cases of attack hits and this happens - very specific very straight outta box - that you absolutely want to see happen in your new wonder-system **and** six that absolutely cannotvl be in it?

Of these two sets of six, three should be "as seen in DnD now" and three should be "not gonna happen in dnd now"

That dirty dozen use cases should - if robust - give you a set of boundaries to design in.

 

[Sadras]

During the playtest period of 5e I would cap HD for PC and NPCs depending on their size. Con modifiers though would carry on. Seemed to work well enough, but we did not playtest all the way through to level 20. It did have the added effect of the players not being super-cavalier about everything due to their limited hit points and it seemed to ramp-up the tenseness in combat.

Small Size - 4HD
Medium Size - 6HD
Large Size - 10HD
Huge - 18HD
Gargantuan - 30HD

 

[Shiroiken]

I would suggest incorporating a "wound" system. Basically each race gets a number of wounds (say 5 is average, elf gets 4, dwarf gets 6). You gain wounds by: taking a critical hit, taking 20 damage from a single source, dropping to 0 HP, or taking a failed death save (this replaces the death saves). If you take too many wounds, you die.

Wounds can be removed by: completing a long rest, healing 20 HP from a single source, healing to maximum HP (once per long rest), a Lesser Restoration (instead of any other effect) and Greater Restoration removes 3 (or 1 with another effect).

This turns HP into stamina, and your Wounds become far more important. At higher levels, you may be able to take a lot of damage, but it still only takes a couple of wounds to die since they never go up. Obviously this is a draft that needs tweaking, but you get the idea.

 

[S'mon]

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

I took a cue from 4e for my Primeval Thule campaign, and start PCs off with their full CON score plus maxed hit die for their first level hp. HP at higher levels still increase normally. Somewhat counter intuitively, this big boost in level 1 hp greatly lessens the feel of hp inflation you get under the standard system - a 4th level PC does not feel like they're in a different genre from a 1st level PC any more.

I could have reduced hp gain at higher level, but that will eventually throw out the whole balance of play; damaging spells and high-damage monsters quickly become excessively lethal. Better just to reduce the rate of level gain, and if necessary cap level below 20 - eg with E10 (cap at 10, further advances through stat boost & feats) PC max hp is halved; monster & PC damage remains proportionate to hp.

I could certainly cap my Thule game at E10 and it would work well - I can't say I care much about the difference between 100 hp and 200 hp though. If I really wanted a keep-hp-low game I'd play Runequest/BRP.

 

[5atbu]

Play True20 from Green Ronin.
But really you can't fix this in D&D, it's baked in to the system too deep.
Play an RPG that doesn't have this inflated escalation:
RuneQuest
GURPS Fantasy
Savage Worlds
Genesys
Symbaroum
Are some that I like. YMMV

 

[5atbu]

Hit point is the best of all silly solutions to emulate heroic skill.
Otherwise you have to allow a small chance to have a high level character to be slain one shot by any low threat encounter.

IMHO it's the worst. But that's just my view and I have grown to love the whole 5e and 13Age class level games alongside others

 

[ccs]

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

I have not. Nor will I.
Because even though "hit point" inflation" may on occasion result in some silliness? That's part of D&D. And I want my D&D to be D&D. If I wanted something else? Then I'd just play something else....
Besides, I'm a bit lazy.
As the DM: If I were to change something as fundamental as how HP accrue/work I'd probably have to tinker with a whole lot more - for, very likely, little actual gain. AND then I'd have to explain & sell this pile-o-change to the players.
As a player: Great, now i have to keep track of major rule changes, who knows how many minor ones, & alter my decades long aproach in how to play D&d.... (Have I mentioned that I'm a bit lazy?)

I don't want to do any of that. I just want to play D&D.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

Another option if you haven't tried it is the grittier variant for HP in the DMG, something so you regain HP more slowly, I think one option is weekly instead of daily. While the pool of HP remains the same, recovering it more slowly might take some of the nonchalant attitude out of them.

 

[Reynard]

Another option if you haven't tried it is the grittier variant for HP in the DMG, something so you regain HP more slowly, I think one option is weekly instead of daily. While the pool of HP remains the same, recovering it more slowly might take some of the nonchalant attitude out of them.

This is a useful tool for pacing I have have found, making long journeys worth the effort, for example.

 

[Laurefindel]

The mechanic that most bothers me with D&D ingeneral is the use of hit points. yes, this is well trod ground for internet debates, but I am interested in actually finding a solution to the "hit point problem?

(snip)

Have you eliminated hit point inflation from your 5E game? How did you do it? Did it work?

No, but I am thinking of slowing it down past 10th level. But back to what could be done, here's a few option right of my head.

- Slow down hit point regeneration.

Rather than changing hit point maximums, change the frequency at which hp can be recovered to bring the hp budget from a daily basis to a three-day basis, weekly basis, or cyclic basis. The Slow Healing variant from the DMG is a good start. Perhaps all hit points only come back after a lazy weekend back at home base?
Potential issue: unless you also slow down long-rest abilities recovery ( such as lay of hand and spell slot recovery), magical healing becomes disproportionally beneficial.

-Reduce hp gain per level.

There are several ways to do this. Put a HD maximum (e.g. 10HD cap). Reduce HD progression (i.e. gain hp every second levels, reduce a character's HD max to proficiency bonus). Give diminishing returns on HD (e.g. cut all hp by half after 1st level, divide each hp gain by proficiency bonus, reduce HD size as the character gains level (The fighter only gain 1d8 hp per level after level 3, 1d6 after 7, 1d4 after 11, and only 1hp after level 17)). I'm sure I could come up with a few more.
Potential issue: other than the lower hp itself, certain methods could make Constitution bonus to HP disproportionally beneficial.

- Introduce a type of death spiral.

Don't change hp maximums, but tie mechanics to low hp (e.g. tie hp to exhaustion levels, bring back "bloodied" type effects at 50% hp). Note that not all "steps" of the death spiral need to be negative. A low hp rogue could have a boost to move at low hp, encouraging flight. A low hp fighter could gain advantage on attack rolls as despairation adrenaline kicks in. The new Seventh Sea is a good example of that.
Potential issues: there are a few, but the main one is encouraging more rests after each battles.

- Remove HP altogether.

Introduce a damage-as-saves mechanic as in Mutants & Masterminds, like you suggested. You could tie that to a death spiral mechanics (e.g. give exhaustion levels for each failed save) or hit location chart à la Warhammer RPG, with appropriate repercussions.
Potential issue: repercussions on the system at large are getting greater and less predictable. Players may not "feel" like playing D&D anymore.

- Tie hp to a universal resource.

Make a single pool of resources for characters to use as hp, spell points, and abilities recharge points etc.
Potential issues: so many. I bring this suggestion for the sake of completion, but I don't know how I would implement this in D&D...

- introduce some kind of "travel fatigue"

Have more of the environment affect hp. Travel in rain? Take damage. Rest uneasy because goblins might be in the area? Take damage. Alternatively, suffer exhaustion levels, or regain less hp/HD.
Potential issues: this make travel even more dangerous at low level, and it may not even solve your problems.


Conclusion: to make D&D work with anything else than hp is difficult. I feel your solution lies in introducing a non-linear hp progression, or insist on the attrition of hp over longer periods of time by slowing hp regeneration somehow.

'findel