D&D 4E Removing Magic (Items) from 4E

Bagpuss

Legend
How do you go about removing magic in particular items from 4th Ed.

Removing the Wizard, Warlock Paladin and Cleric isn't too much of a problem since other than the Wizard their roles are filled by Martial classes.

But what bonuses are expected from items to balance the party against the monsters at various levels and how could this be off set by a house rule.

I heard that information on this was in the DMG but I can't seem to find it.
 

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Page 155 discusses the magic item economy, and how rituals can completely replace the need for having magic item shoppes in your world.

As for totally removing magic items altogether, I too would like to know where that is discussed...
 

I think you're looking for the NPC Magic Item threshold in the DMG (next to last chapter, in the NPC creation guides).

Also, I think that some characters could benefit from choosing a couple of extra powers and/or properties from magic items as a bonus: they would be like extra feats or class enc/daily powers, inherent to the PC, chosen at level up. I suppose up to 3 of these are enough, chosen from magic items at level+1, level and level-1, just like if you were building a high level PC. You could make a list and at set levels, the players choose "critical +1d6" or "Daily: recover 1 Healing Surge" and other powers from items that (you think) are appropriate to martial characters.
 

I already posted a reply on CM, but maybe EN Worlders are interested, too.


My Post from CM said:
The information is only implied, I think.

Basically, magical items grant you the following that is "cruicial" for your character:
- Attack Bonus (Weapon & Implements)
- Defense Bonus ("Neck" Slot)
- AC Bonus (Armor)
- Damage Bonus (Weapon & Implements)

Look at the magical item levels. Basically, the game excepts something like
Level 1-5: +1 to attack, +1 to damage, +1d6 to critical damage; +1 to AC, Defense
Level 6-10: +2 to attack, +2 to damage, +2d6 to critical damage; +2 to AC, Defense
Level 11-15: +3 to attack, +3 to damage, +3d6 to critical damage; +3 to AC, Defense
Level 16-20: +4 to attack, +4 to damage, +4d6 to critical damage; +4 to AC, Defense
Level 21-25: +5 to attack, +5 to damage, +5d6 to critical damage; +5 to AC, Defense
Level 26+: +6 to attack, +6 to damage, +6d6 to critical damage; +6 to AC, Defense
Actually, these numbers above are not entirely accurate. Masterwork Items are not figured into this. If you want to do this, Light Armor grants another +1 at paragon and +2 at epic tier, and Heavy Armor +2 at paragon and +4 at epic tier. With the items from Adventures Vault, similar values apply for the defenses.


Basically, the magic item system creates a "sub-tier" for every 5 levels. You could just grant these bonuses, maybe in a staggered way to create a "smooth" progression. (Level 2: Attack/Damage Bonus; Level 3: AC Bonus; Level 4: Defense Bonus)
Alternatively, You could make them "training bonuses". If you used an item (armor, weapon or implement) for at least one day of adventuring, you get this bonus, otherwise you don't.

A further aspect you might want to consider is: "What happens with magical daily item uses?" They go up by tier. Most daily items powers are similar as powerful as an extra encounter power (if they are activated "on impact", they make an at-will equivalent to an encounter power, if they grant their own attack, the attack is similar to an encounter power). Best example are the Wands. You could turn this into a "recharge encounter power" mechanic.
Example:
"Heroic Effort": Once per day as a minor action, a character can recover an encounter power he already used this encounter. At Paragon Tier, a character can do this twice, and at Epic tier, he can do it three times. For every milestone, a character can recover one additional encounter power.


If you want to keep magic classes, but remove their reliance on magical items, remove the magical at-wills and replace them with "martial" abilities. You could also replace the heroic tier encounter powers with martial abilities.
A Wizard might get a special Crossbow Attack (Using INT vs AC, deals 1[W]+INT damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to defense) or a Staff attack (Using INT vs AC, deals 1[W]+INT damage, and the target is slowed.).
A Cleric just uses the "non-Laser Cleric" powers.
The regular At-Wills become "free" encounter powers.
At Paragon Tier, Arcane and Divine heroes can gain access to their first Magical At-Will, retraining one of the at-will-turned-encounter power to become an at-will power (their old at-will power might turn into an encounter power). At Epic Tier, they can retrain the second one.
Addendum: I think some people might refer to the "magic item threshold" that is used for monsters. it basically tells you which magic item bonus is already "factored" in into the monster descriptions.
 



Thanks for the link!

(For the record: I have much less of a problem with a site such as CM. After all, it's free to register. Not that I needed to. And oh, I don't "hate" DDI. Wizards are perfectly free to turn their support into a for-pay service. What I would like to see is for ENWorld to pro-actively work towards a situation where the temptations of DDI are minimized. Considering how relatively little work a filter would be, I consider doing nothing at least implicit support for Wizards marketing schemes. But enough of that. In this thread, at least :-)

So the conclusion seems to be: No, the claim is false. The DMG does not contain any section discussing how to rework the game into a magic item free world?

Page 187 "NPC Design Steps" does provide a "level bonus" (to attack and defenses) but this is a generic number to act as a quick stand-in number, simulating how you aren't building the NPC character using the detailed PC rules.

And the "magic threshold" is an expression of the fact that this level bonus already to some extent factors in that a PC of the corresponding level would have bonuses from magic items. This number is provided for the specific purpose to be deducted from any "real" magic items you give the NPC, so that he or she doesn't enjoy the bonus twice (once from having a real, specific, item that the heroes presumably can loot; once from the generic "quick-build" rules set)

While giving pieces of the puzzle I wouldn't say this is anything near a dedicated section on "how to remove magic items from my campaign". Not from where I'm standing, that is.
 
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Is it just me, or do we get a new thread about each new month asking how to remove magical items and/or magic from 4e? We should have a sticky on the topic.
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
I already posted a reply on CM, but maybe EN Worlders are interested, too...
This is exactly what I was going to suggest, except that heavy armor should grant +3 at paragon and +6 at epic.

TS
 

How do you go about removing magic in particular items from 4th Ed.

Removing the Wizard, Warlock Paladin and Cleric isn't too much of a problem since other than the Wizard their roles are filled by Martial classes.

But what bonuses are expected from items to balance the party against the monsters at various levels and how could this be off set by a house rule.

I heard that information on this was in the DMG but I can't seem to find it.

Bagpuss,

Here's how I took care of it - I simply made a graduated system of armor and weapons that grant the bonuses (as opposed to assigning them by level) so the item-driven reward system in 4E is still left intact.
 

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Here's how I took care of it - I simply made a graduated system of armor and weapons that grant the bonuses (as opposed to assigning them by level) so the item-driven reward system in 4E is still left intact.
Sorry for asking, but what I see is a renaming scheme. Is that it?

(Instead of a +3 Longsword you get a Superior Steel Longsword that just happens to give +3 on attacks, +3 on damage and +3d6 on criticals)

Does "min level" mean the PC must be at least that level before he can find the weapon, or something else?

(I would have thought "average level" would mesh better with the DMG treasure awarding rules: that is, if we say Superior Steel weapons have a level of 13, you could presumably start hoping to find one already at level 8. Because the DMG specifies that once each level, you're going to find a "level+5" item)

Or am I misunderstanding your Excel sheet here...?

Zapp

PS. I am considering to carry over the following houserule from our 3E-campaign into 4E:

Any "plain" magic item, one without any properties such as "Flaming" etc, is considered non-magical and does not register on Detect Magic. Instead, its properties are explained through superior quality: the Enchantment bonus(es) turns into a Quality bonus. The item otherwise works exactly as normal, and is priced exactly as normal.

As I see it, your approach is identical to this rule. Other than the fact you remove all other "really magical" magic items, of course. Yes?
 

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