D&D 5E Reorganized Exhaustion Chart?

[DEFCON 1]

For my two Curse of Strahd games I ran in order to make combat a bit grittier, I replaced the '3 Death Saves' chart with the Exhaustion Chart instead. When you reached 0 HP, your death saves were giving you levels of exhaustion. So while it took longer for characters to die (since they had to fail 6 saves to reach Level 6 exhaustion and death), there was stiffer consequences for dropping to 0 HP-- the various effects of the Exhaustion chart.

While it ended up working okay in practice... I found that the current order of effects of the chart felt a little off to me and my players. This was mainly due to the Level 1 effect-- the disadvantage on all ability checks. Because I tied the Exhaustion chart directly to combat, it ended up feeling very weird that as a result of being hurt in combat, they got worse at things like History checks or Insight. Combat didn't reduce combat skill, combat reduced mental acumen instead. Obviously I can justify it to a certain extent... when you are tired your brain slows down... but there did feel to be a disconnect that even though the brain was slowing down, the body also wasn't at the same time. At least not right away.

Obviously because I tied Exhaustion directly TO combat (which is not ordinarily the case), the disconnect was worse for me than it might be for others... but based on what seems to be an issue many players have with the Frenzy Barbarian, that Level 1 of Exhaustion seems to be a greater penalty than perhaps it should be? At least at Level 1?

So my thinking is that perhaps a re-ordering of the Exhaustion chart might be in order? Where some of (what appear to me to be) the harsher penalties dropped down the chart and less penalizing ones moved up? Admittedly, every DM is probably going to find different parts of the chart to be more or less harsh for their own game, so I have no doubt that some will look at my change and say it is an attempt at an unneeded fix-- which is fine. But for those of you who might agree with my assessment-- that the disadvantage on ability checks is too harsh and a bit misplaced to deserve the Level 1 effect on the chart (before some of the physical penalties show up)-- how does this re-ordering work for you, and what changes might you make based on what you think is actually a more accurate step up in penalty? Especially if you are a DM or player who has seen the Frenzy Barbarian in action and know what those consequences result in?

Level 1: Speed halved
Level 2: Disadvantage on STR, DEX, CON ability checks
Level 3: Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
Level 4: Hit point maximum halved and disadvantage on INT, WIS, CHA ability checks
Level 5: Speed reduced to 0
Level 6: Death

I should also point out that part of my reasoning for re-ordering is because I do like using the Exhaustion chart in place of the '3 Death Saves' chart because I do like having consequences for dropping to 0 HP and want to use the format again in my next campaign. I just don't like non-combat disadvantages to come in before penalties and disadvantage on more physical activities.

 

[Krachek]

I read that Mike Mearls use a personal house rule for exhaustion.
He said that he only use a hit point maximum reduction.
I dont have details.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/01/25/i-dont-really-like-exhaustion/

 

[iserith]

For my two Curse of Strahd games I ran in order to make combat a bit grittier, I replaced the '3 Death Saves' chart with the Exhaustion Chart instead. When you reached 0 HP, your death saves were giving you levels of exhaustion. So while it took longer for characters to die (since they had to fail 6 saves to reach Level 6 exhaustion and death), there was stiffer consequences for dropping to 0 HP-- the various effects of the Exhaustion chart.

How often do characters drop to zero HP in your game? Does it happen every adventuring day?

Does the standard exhaustion chart combined with your house rule influence player behavior in any notable way? I'm curious what they do in response to this house rule.

While it ended up working okay in practice... I found that the current order of effects of the chart felt a little off to me and my players. This was mainly due to the Level 1 effect-- the disadvantage on all ability checks. Because I tied the Exhaustion chart directly to combat, it ended up feeling very weird that as a result of being hurt in combat, they got worse at things like History checks or Insight. Combat didn't reduce combat skill, combat reduced mental acumen instead. Obviously I can justify it to a certain extent... when you are tired your brain slows down... but there did feel to be a disconnect that even though the brain was slowing down, the body also wasn't at the same time. At least not right away.

Obviously because I tied Exhaustion directly TO combat (which is not ordinarily the case), the disconnect was worse for me than it might be for others... but based on what seems to be an issue many players have with the Frenzy Barbarian, that Level 1 of Exhaustion seems to be a greater penalty than perhaps it should be? At least at Level 1?

On the "body also wasn't at the same time," doesn't level 1 exhaustion also apply to ability checks tied to physical tasks? I'm not sure what the disconnect here is exactly.

Also, do your players ask to make ability checks or make them unprompted? Or is there an expectation that they'll be rolling ability checks for most tasks or, rather, most tasks that sound like they could be an ability check (e.g. if you lie, you make a Deception check, always)? I think that makes a difference in the perception as to how bad standard level 1 exhaustion is.

 

[DEFCON 1]

How often do characters drop to zero HP in your game? Does it happen every adventuring day?

Does the standard exhaustion chart combined with your house rule influence player behavior in any notable way? I'm curious what they do in response to this house rule.

Since it was Curse of Strahd, the rule was meant to make players think twice about just jumping straight into combat... which was successful for what it was trying to do. They negotiated more often than just going straight into fights, because there was harsher consequences for getting knocked out. So it made combat grittier and more painful, and thus it did affect player response. Which I was happy to see.

On the "body also wasn't at the same time," doesn't level 1 exhaustion also apply to ability checks tied to physical tasks? I'm not sure what the disconnect here is exactly.

It does, but at least in my games the number of physical tasks where checks need to be made occur much less often than mental ones. After all, there are 18 skills but only 4 of them involve the physical abilities (STR and DEX). And even one of those occurs so infrequently in my games (Sleight of Hand) that I almost don't even count it. So my games resulted in long hard fights which didn't actually affect their subsequent fighting skill, but instead affected being able to remember names or notice people hiding. So like I said, a disconnect for me and my table personally.

Also, do your players ask to make ability checks or make them unprompted? Or is there an expectation that they'll be rolling ability checks for most tasks or, rather, most tasks that sound like they could be an ability check (e.g. if you lie, you make a Deception check, always)? I think that makes a difference in the perception as to how bad standard level 1 exhaustion is.

Most tasks that players wish to make will have a check connected to them if there is a chance they cannot know/do it. So yes, like I said the Level 1 exhaustion was much more of a punishment for us than halving speed would be. That's why I was looking at swapping levels around.

 

[Satyrn]

I think I'd prefer moving the disadvantage on attacks moved up to #2, with the disadvantage on all ability checks grouped together with saves at #3.

I actually don't mind attacking with disadvantage. I've even gone an entire session full of combat voluntarily taking disadvantage on every attack so I could use a pair of pistols I wasn't trained with - and they weren't any stronger than just attacking with my customary pair of shortswords!

 

[iserith]

Since it was Curse of Strahd, the rule was meant to make players think twice about just jumping straight into combat... which was successful for what it was trying to do. They negotiated more often than just going straight into fights, because there was harsher consequences for getting knocked out. So it made combat grittier and more painful, and thus it did affect player response. Which I was happy to see.

It does, but at least in my games the number of physical tasks where checks need to be made occur much less often than mental ones. After all, there are 18 skills but only 4 of them involve the physical abilities (STR and DEX). And even one of those occurs so infrequently in my games (Sleight of Hand) that I almost don't even count it. So my games resulted in long hard fights which didn't actually affect their subsequent fighting skill, but instead affected being able to remember names or notice people hiding. So like I said, a disconnect for me and my table personally.

Most tasks that players wish to make will have a check connected to them if there is a chance they cannot know/do it. So yes, like I said the Level 1 exhaustion was much more of a punishment for us than halving speed would be. That's why I was looking at swapping levels around.

Okay, given the specifics of how you run your games, your change seems reasonable.

 

[Satyrn]

Oh, and here's a second thought.

What if you ordered the exhaustion levels so it affected offense first, then later levels wore down defense and then tbe ability to escape. This way, lightly exhausted characters are weaker, but still able to stand up to punishment and flee from danger, too.

In this ordering, the speed penalty would come near the end, probably after halving the hp maximum, and the penalty to attacks would come first. Like:

Level 1: Disadvantage on attack rolls
Level 2: Disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws
Level 3: Hit point maximum halved
Level 4: Speed halved
Level 5: Speed reduced to 0
Level 6: Death


And as a crazy mod, the barbarian can ignore all the penalties of exhaustion (excelt the hp max) while raging.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I actually don't mind attacking with disadvantage. I've even gone an entire session full of combat voluntarily taking disadvantage on every attack so I could use a pair of pistols I wasn't trained with - and they weren't any stronger than just attacking with my customary pair of shortswords!

I've seen players get angry at this kind of anti-min/max shenanigans. But, personally, I think this type of play is what makes for a fun and memorable session.


I like this discussion as I'd like to see exhaustion play a bigger part at our table, too. Tome of Beasts has a few nasties whose attacks can cause exhaustion via a disease mechanic (e.g. Rat King). Quite a drain on the Paladin's lay-on-hands power.

 

[Satyrn]

I've seen players get angry at this kind of anti-min/max shenanigans. But, personally, I think this type of play is what makes for a fun and memorable session.

It helped immensely that the dice were on my side that night. I mean, I'm sure I'd have switched back to the swords pretty quickly except that I just. kept. hitting.

I haven't been "afraid" of disadvantage since, happily, bravely plowing into combat even when it means I'm gonna get poisoned. (That was the last couple sessions).

 

[iserith]

I like this discussion as I'd like to see exhaustion play a bigger part at our table, too. Tome of Beasts has a few nasties whose attacks can cause exhaustion via a disease mechanic (e.g. Rat King). Quite a drain on the Paladin's lay-on-hands power.

There's sort of this mini-game I have in place for dealing with city activities in my Planescape game. Since the players aren't from Sigil and it's big and confusing, traveling from one ward to another and "unlocking" new locations is something they can do. (Unlocking locations gives them additional options for activities.) A bad die result means exhaustion though which then impacts subsequent activities that day due to disadvantage on ability checks. If you choose to pit fight, you can make some jink doing that, but you risk exhaustion as well. I also offer certain location-specific risks. For example, after the PCs unlocked the Fhurling Bridge location, they can now use that bridge as a shortcut to gain advantage on their check to travel/explore between the Hive Ward and Lower Ward; however, it's in a terrible state of disrepair, so you have to make a Dex save to avoid taking a level of exhaustion if you use it. It's a risk, but for some PCs, it's better than hiring a tout (guide) which also grants advantage on the check, but is quite expensive.

For planewalking, there's also risk of exhaustion due to extreme environmental effects (depending on the plane), lack of proper supplies, and forced marches.

Exhaustion - I'm a fan!