Satyrn
First Post
That might just be the best way to make sure every player feels like they got the least painful option every time.
D&D 5E Reorganized Exhaustion Chart?
That might just be the best way to make sure every player feels like they got the least painful option every time.
Kinematics
Hero
So, on the real-life example, from back when I did long distance running, I'd agree that the first thing that hits is reduced speed. You go from running, to jogging, to walking, and just kind of keep moving until you've recovered enough to pick up the pace again.
Comparing on the idea of bailing, it takes a lot to get to the point where you can't keep moving at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't as quick about the process by the end of the day as he was at the beginning.
At the same time, I don't see mental processes slowing down in the early stages, but definitely in the later stages. At the same time, I wouldn't characterize it as being more likely to fail (disadvantage), but rather taking longer for your brain to work. It may not matter if it takes longer for you to remember that historical fact, but it's much more likely to matter that it's taking you a lot longer to notice and react to the shadows moving in the trees up ahead.
Going on a tangent, I'd wonder about a version of Disadvantage where, if the lower value fails, but the higher value would have been a success, you have to take the consequences of failure, but then you still get the success. For the history check, it just means you're a bit groggy and slow to answer. For the perception check, you might end up getting ambushed because you were slow to notice things. For the animal handling check, you might be slow to recognize the signs that the dog was going to bite you, and you end up getting bit before you get it under control.
On the other hand, if you fail to jump the pit, then it doesn't matter if you get the success after the failure, because failure means the success couldn't happen at all. And if you applied this to attack rolls, hitting with the attack overturns the consequences of missing the attack, so it's again something that can't happen, and thus doesn't. In other words, it makes sense without breaking anything even if you apply this rule across the board.
So if you just treated disadvantage in general this way, it would largely be fine.
If you used that form of disadvantage, then I'd say the basic form in the rulebook is perfectly fine. It's where disadvantage often means failure, and you often can't reroll a check another time, where that first level of exhaustion is incredibly frustrating to deal with. At the same time... yeah, speed drops before you really start getting loopy or groggy.
Level 1: Speed halved
Level 2: Disadvantage on ability checks
Level 3: Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
Level 4: Hit point maximum halved
Level 5: Speed reduced to 0
Level 6: Death
The only other thing I would consider would be that you could recover from a level 1 exhaustion with a short rest instead of a long rest. You can get to the point of dragging your feet in a relatively short time period, but it also only takes an hour or so of resting to get back to where you're ready to keep going. By the time you're getting loopy (disadvantage on ability checks), though, yeah, you need a good night's rest to get back in shape.
That would also make the rules about exhaustion from combat more reasonable. When half the party can expect to pick up a level of exhaustion from even a relatively trivial fight, and that means that most of the rest of the day of regular activity is wasted, people are going to actively avoid pushing forward, and take short rests as much as possible. If they can expect to recover from that first level of exhaustion from a short rest, though, they're more likely to push on a bit longer, particularly if they just have to deal with the less frustrating speed reduction, while still expecting to be able to be productive during the rest of the day.
Having just gotten through a campaign involving magic items that induced exhaustion, the constant need for a night's rest (or several) just dragged the entire adventure down, slowing everything down.
Comparing on the idea of bailing, it takes a lot to get to the point where you can't keep moving at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't as quick about the process by the end of the day as he was at the beginning.
At the same time, I don't see mental processes slowing down in the early stages, but definitely in the later stages. At the same time, I wouldn't characterize it as being more likely to fail (disadvantage), but rather taking longer for your brain to work. It may not matter if it takes longer for you to remember that historical fact, but it's much more likely to matter that it's taking you a lot longer to notice and react to the shadows moving in the trees up ahead.
Going on a tangent, I'd wonder about a version of Disadvantage where, if the lower value fails, but the higher value would have been a success, you have to take the consequences of failure, but then you still get the success. For the history check, it just means you're a bit groggy and slow to answer. For the perception check, you might end up getting ambushed because you were slow to notice things. For the animal handling check, you might be slow to recognize the signs that the dog was going to bite you, and you end up getting bit before you get it under control.
On the other hand, if you fail to jump the pit, then it doesn't matter if you get the success after the failure, because failure means the success couldn't happen at all. And if you applied this to attack rolls, hitting with the attack overturns the consequences of missing the attack, so it's again something that can't happen, and thus doesn't. In other words, it makes sense without breaking anything even if you apply this rule across the board.
So if you just treated disadvantage in general this way, it would largely be fine.
If you used that form of disadvantage, then I'd say the basic form in the rulebook is perfectly fine. It's where disadvantage often means failure, and you often can't reroll a check another time, where that first level of exhaustion is incredibly frustrating to deal with. At the same time... yeah, speed drops before you really start getting loopy or groggy.
Level 1: Speed halved
Level 2: Disadvantage on ability checks
Level 3: Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
Level 4: Hit point maximum halved
Level 5: Speed reduced to 0
Level 6: Death
The only other thing I would consider would be that you could recover from a level 1 exhaustion with a short rest instead of a long rest. You can get to the point of dragging your feet in a relatively short time period, but it also only takes an hour or so of resting to get back to where you're ready to keep going. By the time you're getting loopy (disadvantage on ability checks), though, yeah, you need a good night's rest to get back in shape.
That would also make the rules about exhaustion from combat more reasonable. When half the party can expect to pick up a level of exhaustion from even a relatively trivial fight, and that means that most of the rest of the day of regular activity is wasted, people are going to actively avoid pushing forward, and take short rests as much as possible. If they can expect to recover from that first level of exhaustion from a short rest, though, they're more likely to push on a bit longer, particularly if they just have to deal with the less frustrating speed reduction, while still expecting to be able to be productive during the rest of the day.
Having just gotten through a campaign involving magic items that induced exhaustion, the constant need for a night's rest (or several) just dragged the entire adventure down, slowing everything down.
I can remember a session where i failed all my constitution checks despite having a 14 in Con. It was pretty frustrating since i just could not get rid of the Exhaustion which forced me to do all my rolls with disadvantage most of the time. I must admit, i did not like it as a Player and i would not use it in that way on my Players when i DM.
That's interesting. I'd probably keep Speed = 0 as the fifth option just before death (especially in ToA where travel is so important), but I do like this idea. Might slow down the game a bit if they get to choose though, and in ToA there's a lot of Exhaustion. I actually have my first ToA session later today, but when the jungle fun starts I'll keep this stuff in mind.
Indeed, we are mainly TotM players. Grid'nminis get busted out when its a larger battle or the terrain features are too difficult to describe and/or keep track of in our heads... which is also why (as you surmise) speed is not nearly as important a mechanic for us. So even speed adductions/reductions like Small dropping 5', Wood Elf gaining 5', barbarian gaining 10' etc. doesn't really have an impact on our games. Really, the only two times that speed has an impact during TotM for us is the rogues who can Dash as bonus actions, and the monks when their speed gets much higher than the standard 30'. Other than that... the niggling differences between 5' gained here, 5' lost there are pretty much erased during most TotM battles because I'm guesstimating differences between people and targets anyway.
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Now THAT is a very intriguing idea! I hadn't thought of that. But it makes for an interesting decision point for each player as they have to decide what is and what isn't important to their characters.
I think that were I to go with this idea though... I'd probably make this chart arrangement for each PC as part of their character generation. So rather than letting each player rearrange the chart each time they drop to 0 HP (and thus try and min-max every single situation and slow the game down)... I'd have them decide when they create the character which parts of them "get tired" or "lose focus" first when they become exhausted. Does their PC go mentally slack but remain physically all right (which might make them put Disad on ability checks at say Level 1 or 2 but Disad on Atttacks and Saves below it)? Do they slow down first and then lose focus on attacking, but they mentally stay sharp? When they are exhausted does their health energy drop but they can still push through mentally and physically as needed until they get worse?
These would all be important choices for each player to make as part of their build and would customize their PCs when things go bad. It is a very interesting idea! Thank you for sharing, I'll have to really consider it!
Tha biggest prob is that getting rid of exhaustion Levels requires you either a full rest or a save. But if no fuill rest is available the and save is at disadvantage it sux big time, because the effect of exhaustion on your capabilities as a PC is grave.
As a DM I really prefer short time conditions if i want to give my PCs a hard time, since Exhaustion is as frustrating in 5E as the classic Ravenloft powers check table was in 2e!
As a DM I really prefer short time conditions if i want to give my PCs a hard time, since Exhaustion is as frustrating in 5E as the classic Ravenloft powers check table was in 2e!
Indeed. When I used the Exhaustion chart for my Curse of Strahd game, it was coupled with a lot of other changes to hit points, hit dice, healing and so forth... and making it easier to get rid of Exhaustion levels was one of them. I think I had like the Healer feat allow you to help get rid of extra levels, and Lesser Restoration could get rid of one per spell level (using a higher spell slot reduced an additional level of exhaustion.)
I would definitely be coupling easier exhaustion recovery were I to re-adopt the 'exhaustion chart for death saves' chart in any future game.
What circumstances allow a "save" to remove exhaustion?
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