D&D 5E Reorganized Exhaustion Chart?

[cooperjer]

You present some interesting ideas. With respect to moving disadvantage to wisdom, charisma, and intelligence checks I tried to think of how exhaustion feels in reality. The best example I could think of was bailing hay mid-summer. It's been several years since I've bailed hay and I didn't have to do it very often, but when I did it was exhausting work. Thinking back on that time, I feel like my mental capacity was diminished before my physical capacity. It would have been difficult to recall something I learned earlier in the week at school, or to perceive a subtle movement; but I would have had more capability to keep bailing hay if needed, until I couldn't move. This is just some food for thought.

I'm not supporting trying to apply reality to the game. It generally doesn't work well. However, Mearls did say something in his last Happy Fun Time video that made sense. If the rule feels natural to follow then applying it will be easier because it will make sense to all the players and the DM, and there will be less of a need to stop the game and look it up.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Oh, and here's a second thought.

What if you ordered the exhaustion levels so it affected offense first, then later levels wore down defense and then tbe ability to escape. This way, lightly exhausted characters are weaker, but still able to stand up to punishment and flee from danger, too.

In this ordering, the speed penalty would come near the end, probably after halving the hp maximum, and the penalty to attacks would come first. Like:

Level 1: Disadvantage on attack rolls
Level 2: Disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws
Level 3: Hit point maximum halved
Level 4: Speed halved
Level 5: Speed reduced to 0
Level 6: Death

I see where you're going with this, and can understand the impulse... once a fight happens that a character isn't ready for, they might not have the energy to get into the scrap, but they'll certain have the energy to get the hell out of dodge.

I wonder though if at my personal table the issue isn't so much that my players need to be able to maintain an ease of escape. I want to say that running away tends to happen infrequently-- mainly because if they approach a situation they are going to have major problems with, they now know to avoid confrontation altogether rather than get into a scrap only to then have to run away. So for my players... halving their speed is almost like the one "free" level of exhaustion-- the one that doesn't impact or come up nearly the same amount as ability checks, attacks, or saving throws.

Plus another way to look at it... halving speed doesn't necessarily "affect" the character story-wise except in extreme circumstances. A PC whose speed is halved can still keep up with his fellows by moving and then using his action to Dash (giving him a full 30' of movement)... he just can't use his action for anything else. His fellows can still attack or keep watch or use their action for some other activity as they move... the exhausted PC though has to just focus on moving. (It'd only be when the entire party decided to bolt by moving and Dashing that they'd be leaving their exhausted party member in the dust... but there's few times where I think I'd ever see that happen.)

I did though consider moving Disadvantage on attacks higher up on the chart like you put in (since negating it by also gaining Advantage is often easier during combat)... but I think I do like the idea of having Level 1 be as free from gameplay hardship as possible. Disadvantage on ANY rolls affects my players and their gameplay moreso than other things, so I think I'd prefer to keep Level 1 free from any Disadvantaged features.

For other people Disad might not be as much of a hardship, but for my table... I think I'll let them have a level of relative calm before they start getting swatted by the Disad hammer. Things will be spiraling out of control for them soon enough.

 

[CubicsRube]

I dont mind disadvantage on ability checks happening before attack rolls and saving throws. It makes sense that in a combat situation you have adrenaline going and are performing on you "last reserves".

I definately agree with speed halved being put at level 1. And i would put it there if i was to run the game with exhaustion levels. It gives a mostly minor nuisance as a warning.

In fact I'd probably make it:
1 speed halved
2 hit point maximum halved
3 disadvantage on ability checks
4 disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
5 speed reduced to 0
6 death

A frenzy barbarian could theoretically use 2 levels of exhaustion in a day if they wanted to push it, or 3 if they want to take a penalty on ability checks but still be able to defend themselves.

 

[DEFCON 1]

In fact I'd probably make it:
1 speed halved
2 hit point maximum halved
3 disadvantage on ability checks
4 disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
5 speed reduced to 0
6 death

A frenzy barbarian could theoretically use 2 levels of exhaustion in a day if they wanted to push it, or 3 if they want to take a penalty on ability checks but still be able to defend themselves.

Yeah, the idea of moving Max HP halved higher up was also something I thought about. I mean, if you're someone who goes with the idea that HP is (at least partially) energy... having Exhaustion cut into those reserves makes all the sense in the world. And in that regard, now that Disad on Ability Checks gets pushed all the way down to Level 3 there's less of an impulse on my part to necessarily swapping them further underneath Disad on Attack Rolls.

 

[iserith]

On the speed reduction, one thing I always notice (and make fun of) when I use the encumbrance rules from the PHB in dungeon runs is that the players will do anything to avoid that hit to speed for being encumbered. My take on that is a 10-foot reduction in speed doesn't really matter all that much in a confined space like a dungeon. But, oh man, they will empty out their backpacks before they delve. In one recent session, the characters ended up not having any torches to reduce weight - everyone thought someone else would take them!

 

[DEFCON 1]

On the speed reduction, one thing I always notice (and make fun of) when I use the encumbrance rules from the PHB in dungeon runs is that the players will do anything to avoid that hit to speed for being encumbered. My take on that is a 10-foot reduction in speed doesn't really matter all that much in a confined space like a dungeon. But, oh man, they will empty out their backpacks before they delve. In one recent session, the characters ended up not having any torches to reduce weight - everyone thought someone else would take them!

I can't recall a single time when I've actually ever used Encumbrance... so it's not surprising in that regard that I or my players wouldn't find a reduction in speed nearly to be a PC hardship. LOL!

 

[iserith]

I can't recall a single time when I've actually ever used Encumbrance... so it's not surprising in that regard that I or my players wouldn't find a reduction in speed nearly to be a PC hardship. LOL!

In wilderness encounters or overland travel, a hit to speed hurts if encounter distances are greater than in a typical dungeon or if there's time pressure (either time sensitive quests or random encounters per unit of time). In a dungeon where spaces are smaller, I don't think it matters very much. But man the players in my experience will jettison their own mother rather than take a hit to speed.

 

[Satyrn]

I can't recall a single time when I've actually ever used Encumbrance... so it's not surprising in that regard that I or my players wouldn't find a reduction in speed nearly to be a PC hardship. LOL!

Indeed. The exhaustion levels may be kinda like the level progression rate - it's impossible togit the right note for every table and ought to be modified a little to work best. Like how some games have different columns to use for fast or slow level progression, a couple "alternate" exhaustion tables would be helpful

I'm glad I prompted you to think more about how important speed is to your table, so that you can be that much more sure that your changes are going the right way for your table.

 

[iserith]

Just had a thought on speed - do you play theater of the mind or tableau vivant (on a grid)? I can see players not caring as much about speed penalties if it's the former since things tend to be a bit looser in terms of whether someone can get into a good position or not this round in my experience.

 

[pukunui]

Something I've adopted for my ToA game is to let the players choose the order in which they gain exhaustion levels 1 through 5. I believe someone else originally posted the idea in the Enhancing ToA thread. I haven't actually had a chance to use it yet, but I like it in theory at least.