Replacing bonuses by level

[Fell Logic]

This is kinda like aiming at a low magic campaign, but not exactly. I don't care if PCs glow in the dark from magical radiation. What I care is that if PCs don't have their funny toys, they can still grab improvised weapons and face level-appropriate challenges.

The idea here is that skill matters more than enchantment. Joe kobold with a vorpal sword is still a kobold, and Jane super-adventurer with her bare hands is still a super-adventurer.

Also, I want to try decoupling the world economy (GP) from the magic item economy (+6 magic swords). And decoupling both from the cost paid for rituals. Not exactly getting rid of magic item markets, just making it clear that the value of a flaming weapon can't be easially measured in bags of rice. Or castings of tenser's floating disk.

So, 4 changes:

1) remove the 1/2 level bonus to everything, for both monsters and PCs It causes monsters to become prematurely obsolete, and I don't like that. It also creates a "you must be this heroic to fight the dragon" effect, and I really don't like that (Also, I blame it for the vast numbers of kobolds in 1st level adventures. Without the 1/2 level bonus to monsters, the are more monsters that a 1st level party can face)

2) Remove numeric magic item bonuses. ALL OF THEM (Yes, there will be compensation). Powers and effects still stay - Your vorpal sword still takes your on-crit damage to 1d12 instead of 1d6 (see later), and you still get exploding damage dice out of it, but it's a +1 or a +6 weapon depending on who is actually using it.

3) Every level, (Including 1st), PCs may pick one of the following bonuses:
i) +1 to all attacks
ii) +1 AC
iii) +1 to Ref, Will and Fort
iv) +1 to damage, +1d6 extra damage on a crit
v) +1 to all skills
A PC can pick a given bonus no more than once every 5 levels - Equivalently, they must pick each bonus at least once every five levels.

Just to make sure that's understood, there are five bonuses. You get each one *once* every five (5) levels.

For simplicity's sake, when a power gives its attack bonus as Stat + n, but lacks the weapon/implement keywords, the +n overlaps with your to-hit bonus, rather than stacking.

When using a magic item with an effect that scales by enhancement bonus, the effect instead scales with the relevant character bonus (AC bonus for magic armor, Ref/Will/Fort for a magic cloak, Damage/crit for a weapon)

So, for instance, if a PC has a flaming sword, and is level 15, with a +3/+3d6 damage bonus, then their critical hits will do an extra 3d6 fire damage (instead of the regular 3d6 normal damage), and the weapon's daily power will do 2d6 fire damage, ongoing 10.

4) Heroic bonus: : At levels 5, 15, 25, add +1 to all attacks, damage defenses and AC. Double this AC bonus in heavy armor.

This replaces masterworking, assorted "item bonuses to defense", weapon expertise, Weapon focus, all those silly "+1 damage to two energy types (if you meet our random pre-requisites)" and may be expanded to cover anything else that turns out to not scale properly with levels.

(I want to replace weapon focus not so much because I'm hostile to PCs specializing in a favored weapon, but because it is a boring way to specialize. Compared to feats like Heavy Blade Opportunity, weapon focus is just dull.)

And while I'm at contemplating house rules, two wild ideas that I've had, but never gotten a chance to examine in detail:

5) Basic attacks are move actions, not standard. I miss full attacks and the idea that standing still has actual advantages. I have no idea how much benefit this gives monsters compared to PCs, and finding out would require careful contemplation of the monster manual.

6) Bell curve rolls. I'd need to do some serious number crunching on this one. But the basic idea: Roll 3d20, take middle.
For crits:
1 die showing a threat is minor crit: Triggers "on a critical" effects. (if the attack hits)
2 threats is a significant crit: As regular rule crits, max base damage and trigger "on-crit" effects.
3 threats is a major crit: Max base damage, Max "on-crit" damage, trigger on-crit effects.

(Minor crits are actually more common this way. I like this; Having weapons distinguished *only* by crit effect, which happens 1 attack roll in 20, and not necessarily the attack roll you want is, I feel, a bad idea. Having them happen more often helps a little.)

 

[Kzach]

1) remove the 1/2 level bonus to everything, for both monsters and PCs It causes monsters to become prematurely obsolete, and I don't like that. It also creates a "you must be this heroic to fight the dragon" effect, and I really don't like that (Also, I blame it for the vast numbers of kobolds in 1st level adventures. Without the 1/2 level bonus to monsters, the are more monsters that a 1st level party can face)

I don't understand this; can you explain it a little more?

2) Remove numeric magic item bonuses. ALL OF THEM (Yes, there will be compensation). Powers and effects still stay - Your vorpal sword still takes your on-crit damage to 1d12 instead of 1d6 (see later), and you still get exploding damage dice out of it, but it's a +1 or a +6 weapon depending on who is actually using it.

I really, really, really like this.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Could you re-number your wild ideas as (3) and (4) rather than another (1) and (2)? It would just make discussion easier.

---

Fell Logic, did you play Iron Heroes? Recreating that feel in 4E has been a bit of a quest of mine. Suffice to say, we have the same goals. I've considered your methods but rejected them though as it's a bit annoying to keep track of which +x you selected at which level (e.g., "Did I take the +1 to AC yet?"). Also, the system is prone to error if you lose track, by taking another +1 to AC before you should have it.

The method I've decided on is as follows:

1. As a class feature each class gets a flat +4 to attacks with attack types associated on one stat (e.g., Fighters get +4 to attack with Str-based powers, regardless of their actual strength. Paladins, Clerics, Warlocks and Rangers get to pick which stat to get the +4 in). This does not stack with your actual stat modifier. Damage is configured normally. This way a 16 Str Fighter gets +4 Att, +3 Dmg with Str-based Attack powers.

(The above change isn't strictly necessary to accomplish your design goals. I've just implemented it to allow for more interesting PC builds. Now you have a reason for high-str Fighters but you don't need to maximize it so badly.)


2. The only way to increase primary stat Attack rolls is through Feats. Attacks based on a stat other than your primary stat (e.g., acquired through multi-classing) may increase from stat increases.

3. Given rule #2, magic items do not grant Attack or Defense bonuses, but weapons do give their normal bonus to damage and also get their "extra features." Similarly the "special material" armors may be necessary to get certain of the "extra features" but they do not grant a bonus to AC.

3.a. The Magic Item is treated as an Item of the same level as the PC, and "levels up" with the PC. It's quite reasonable for a PC to use the same magic sword their entire career (this is a design goal of mine; Arthur never traded in Excalibur after all).

3.b. If an item's minimum level is higher than the PC's current level I usually treat it as a simple "Magic Weapon/Armor/Amulet" until the PC's level matches the item's minimum level and they "unlock" the item's more powerful features. By example, a Flaming Sword in the hands of a 4th level PC is just a +1 Sword. Non-Weapon/Armor/Amulet Items either work at the minimum level or simply don't work at all, on a case by case basis. (i.e., "You lack the power to master this flying carpet. It will not obey you.")

3.c Mundane, non-magical items are treated as Magic Items 5 levels lower than the PC. So at 5th level even a normal set of Chain get a +1 AC and a normal dagger gets +1 dmg, +1d6 crit. This allows that Burgar the 18th Level Barbarian may get a slight advantage from having a magic sword, but he can still kill level-appropriate giants with a rusty axe.

(I realize this makes levels divisible by 5 a "big deal" while your system allows for a more graduated advancement, but I find the simplicity in administration to be so useful as to make it a good trade-off to me)


4. To keep the scales balanced I reduce Monster Attacks and Defenses by 1/monster level. HP and Damage remain unchanged. This preserves the usefulness of even lowly goblins and orcs into the highest levels and also allows PCs of mixed level (like a 10th level Ranger and 4 1st level Halflings) to adventure together.

5. Total HP, Power Acquisition and Skills advance normally. No changes.

 

[DanmarLOK]

Off hand I can't see anything wrong with 2/3/4 if you're players are good with it. Some people like having a +2 axe, not +2 with every attack or like having the idea that this sword is sharper, better balanced etc. but that's a flavor thing more than mechanical.

One big thing out of this though would be a LOT more leeway in loot I could give to the players without unbalancing things. The game expects a certain progression in power curve in terms of combat and X magic items per level. This makes it impossible to hand out a lot of the 'neat/cool/quirky' items that have little to no effect on combat without downgrading the players combat power.

In terms of power curves though you're going to end up with +9 swords for all intents and purposes at level 30. That's going to affect the balance of the mechanics in PC's vs Monsters I think. So the players are gaining +9 - 21 (+15 base at 30 with an expected +6 item) or negative 12 on the power scale versus the monsters being at -15 on the power scale so an increase in power on the players side so monsters will be weaker as a result.

1 is more iffy in terms of waterfall effect on balance I think at first glance but I'd have to think it through more to have a valid opinion. It would get around my personal issues with the inflationary skill values to some extent. More thought required.

I'm not sure you're gaining all that much in terms of more monsters to fight? If everything loses 1/2 level then at first glance it seems that everything's remaining in balance?

But with that all said, this is pretty intriguing and I'd love to hear how things work out for you.

 

[Fell Logic]

Fell Logic, did you play Iron Heroes? Recreating that feel in 4E has been a bit of a quest of mine. Suffice to say, we have the same goals. I've considered your methods but rejected them though as it's a bit annoying to keep track of which +x you selected at which level (e.g., "Did I take the +1 to AC yet?"). Also, the system is prone to error if you lose track, by taking another +1 to AC before you should have it.

Really? All you actually need to remember is your current bonus, and that your bonus can't exceed level/5.

You could have a little 5 line table on the back of your character sheet, like this:

Attack: +2
AC: +1
Defenses: +2
Damage: +1
Skills: +2

Heroic: +1

Just make sure the bonus is less than your level/5 when you're adding to it, and you won't go wrong.

And yes, I've played Iron Heroes. It feels to me like a system that kinda needs a 2nd edition to smooth out some of the bugs.

 

[Fell Logic]

To explain the first point, let's take a sample monster, the Angel of Valor, L8

It has +13 to hit, and an AC of 24

If 1st level PCs fight one, there will be a great deal of missing, a great deal of getting hit, and much frustration all around. Also, they'll probably lose.

If we subtract the 1/2 level bonus, it has +9 to hit and AC20.

Now, 1st level PCs will still probably lose. It has a lot of HP. But if they want to make a fighting retreat, it won't be quite as much an exercise in frustration. And if they have a cunning plan (smile, point to DMG p42), they're a lot less likely to get foiled by bad dice rolls.

The intent is to make encounters with monsters of the same level unchanged, while higher level monsters are bit less frustrating, and lower level monsters a bit more threatening.

(I have no plans to throw angels of valor against 1st level PCs. Orcs and hobgoblins are another matter.)

 

[Kzach]

If 1st level PCs fight one, there will be a great deal of missing, a great deal of getting hit, and much frustration all around. Also, they'll probably lose.

Err... so they should. I'm really not seeing any problem with this.

As for the magic item thing, here's what I've worked out that I want to do in my setting.

I'd already been working on something similar but had kept +1 to +3. It wasn't working well. I really liked the idea of getting rid of magical bonuses to hit altogether so that's what I did.

I simply made it +1 to hit, damage, defences and +1d6 on a crit at 1st-level, 6th-level, 11th-level, 16th-level, 21st-level and 26th-level. This retains the current system balance.

However, as has been mentioned in other threads, there is a +1 disparity per tier. Therefore I've introduced masterwork weapons and implements. A weapon or implement can have three levels of craftsmanship and materials used. By about level 5, most characters should have one masterwork weapon or implement that gives them a +1 to hit. By about level 15, most characters should have a masterwork weapon or implement that gives them a +2 to hit. And by 25th-level, everyone should have a +3 to hit weapon or implement.

Special materials are of course used. +1 is stuff like folded steel, +2 is stuff like adamantine and +3 is generally pretty epic like a chunk of a primordial's soul or something.