Replacing regeneration?

[Crazy Jerome]

I also like the save against everything option, absent silver, especially for the effect on death saves. A lycanthrope put through the wringer, but with no silver involved, keeps making all death saves and not dying, until it eventually rolls a 20 and pops up (potentially after the party has left it for dead). In one neat mechanic, this gives a suitable effect during combat, that will be felt, and also explains why the lycanthropes are "unkillable" by mundane damage.

If that option is used, however, I would allow very little silver to remove the effect when applied to a "dying" creature. For example, if a party with no silver weapons beats a werewolf down into the negatives, makes their monster knowledge check, and has some silver coins, I'd allow the force feeding of that silver coin (or powered silver into the wounds, or really anything like it) to negate the effect. Then the werewolf can probably fail death saves and die, but might still roll a 20 and survive to limp off, if not watched. In turn, once the party knows about it, that could be an interesting decision when the party wanted to flee the area immediately, but also wanted to make sure the lycanthropes stayed down.

I really like that.

I like daze as the vulnerable condition. If that is too strong, then a -2 to speed, save ends, could work. Quick, hit all the werewolves with silver and then run for it!

 

[Quickleaf]

I also like the save against everything option, absent silver, especially for the effect on death saves. A lycanthrope put through the wringer, but with no silver involved, keeps making all death saves and not dying, until it eventually rolls a 20 and pops up (potentially after the party has left it for dead). In one neat mechanic, this gives a suitable effect during combat, that will be felt, and also explains why the lycanthropes are "unkillable" by mundane damage.

I agree that putting two silver coins over the eyes of a lycanthrope (or somesuch) to send them to the afterlife has great story written all over it.

Here's my problem with the unkillable except by silver suggestion. Non-weapon wielders get screwed, because short of a few niche magic items, they've got no way to deal silver damage. And why shouldn't a lightning bolt fry a wererat or werewolf as good as anything else?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I agree that putting two silver coins over the eyes of a lycanthrope (or somesuch) to send them to the afterlife has great story written all over it.

Here's my problem with the unkillable except by silver suggestion. Non-weapon wielders get screwed, because short of a few niche magic items, they've got no way to deal silver damage. And why shouldn't a lightning bolt fry a wererat or werewolf as good as anything else?

I guess that would depend upon how far ranging you wanted to make the change, and what options are available after combat. I don't normally like those kind of "invulnerable" options either, but if the party without the needed resource can beat the thing down with modest extra trouble, then apply the necessary, relatively common, ingredient afterwards, I'm much happier with it.

Anyway, if the change is far ranging, then magic has its own niche. Monsters could have this form of "regen" turned off by:

Fire - magic during combat and/or magic weapons, light a torch after a fight.
Radiant - likewise magic, use holy water.
Silver - silvered weapons, ground silver or coins.
Acid - magic or alchemical substances, pour mundane acid on it.

Where that gets tricky is things like lightning, cold, etc. Those don't have obvious, relatively mundane means to deal with after the fight. Maybe those need to be built into the story of the game, much like "holy water" is relatively cheap "magic" that anyone can use. The magical equivalent of "dry ice" might work for cold.

Alternatively, you could decide that creatures that only have their regen turned off by lightning are just that much bad news, and only willingly tangled with by characters that have the appropriate magical means. Once characters get high enough level, someone cares a +1 lightning dagger, for just such reasons.

Finally, some careful pairings of magic and mundane could work. Perhaps lightning is the "magical form of silver" and vice versa.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Troll Healing shouldn't trigger at start of the monster's turn, shouldn't trigger when fire or acid has nullified regeneration (only triggers on killing blows), should allow coup de graces of some sort, and should actually be fun in any way shape or form.

Well, I disagree that troll healing isn't "fun in any way shape or form".

My players had quite a lot of fun with it when they faced off against trolls - led to some tactical considerations such as making sure that they hit each troll with fire/acid each round. And when the troll leader got up and almost got away because they didn't hit him with fire/acid the round he went down, the "oh yeah" when they realised they hadn't was classic.

Now, that said, I think it was fun because of a couple of factors:

1. The party had ready access to fire - one of the PCs was a wizard with a lot of fire spells.

2. I didn't overdue it - there were only 3 troll fights, one after the other, with the first 2 being fairly low challenge ratings and the trolls starting damaged.

So, I see no problem using the troll mechanic or leaving the lycanthrope one in place so long as they aren't fighting lots of lycanthropes in too many encounters, especially if in a row. Also don't put too many in one encounter - judge the right number by the parties access to sliver, so if they only have one silver weapon, no more than 2 lycanthropes per encounter. As well, you need some non-weapon means of taking them out once there down - with silver coins, or what not.

Personally, I think regeneration is great for a "boss fight" type battle (especially if the "boss" is a standard or elite - on solos, I think it would get grindy), but gets tiresome if you have to deal with it most fights for several sessions in a row.

 

[keterys]

You can get those tactical consideration, in a _much_ more fun way. The current mechanic invalidates too many actions, sets up too many "meh" moments.

And yeah, it's too swingy based on availability of powers. For example, make one guy the only one in the power with one and it's a single target attack. Guess his next 4 rounds are coup de gracing one at a time.

Try an encounter with a pack of troll minions for some real fun

At a minimum, it needs to bring them back at end of their turn so there's a _point_ to dropping one.
It'd also help if it didn't require an attack hitting while the troll is unconscious, so that ongoing damage, auras, and zones worked. And torches, for that matter. Though I think a lot of groups just house rule it to any appropriate damage at all.
Oh, and it's annoying that the order of your attacks matter - a fighter and a wizard hit a troll with 20 hp. Fighter does 10, wizard does 10 fire.
Situation 1: Fighter hits, then wizard hits, troll dies. Yay!
Situation 2: Wizard hits, then fighter hits. Troll is alive. Pops back up at start of its turn, wasting your round. Boo.

Etc.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yeah this question surfaced because I am planning an encounter with lots of lycanthropes. Like has been said above, I realized regen would cause major drag time if a party was going up against 6+ wererats. For a boss monster I could see regen working, but I consider it on par with other self-heal mechanics (eg. orc and vampire) - good for PCs but boring for (most) monsters. Monster HP should move one direction. Down.