Replacing the Fighter

[Andras]

The group I was in when we started our first 3e game started with 3 rogues and a cleric. We snuck up on and sneak attacked just about every encounter we could. We all took 3 levels of rogue before branching out. I went Wizard/Arcane Trickster.

 

[Dandu]

Ambushing is a great way to take care of encounters. Never underestimate the element of surprise!

 

[Jacob Marley]

The group I was in when we started our first 3e game started with 3 rogues and a cleric. We snuck up on and sneak attacked just about every encounter we could. We all took 3 levels of rogue before branching out. I went Wizard/Arcane Trickster.

A good strategy, well executed, with efficient use of resources, and a little luck can often overcome any deficiencies that a party may otherwise possess. So long as the players understand their characters' strengths and weaknesses, any combination of character classes can survive (and thrive!) in an adventure.

 

[Belzbet]

But assuming the fighters do win... well, there's also some monsters that would kill a fighter only party but would be easily defeated by spellcasters. Bat Swarms, for example.

Yeah I am NOT disagreeing with you. I think that you hit my main point on the button. A DM would have to tailor make encounters for a group of wizards (and for a group of fighters, and for any group for that matter); if they have a chance to survive past lower levels. However I REALLY do believe that melee classes SHINE at lower levels and that less tailor making is necessary for a group of 4 fighters (for example you can still surprise a group of fighters at night, you must be VERY lenient/cautious surprising a group of wizards at night (after a long day of battle).
But I must say: half on DMing is tailor making your encounters so that your grouo will be challenged yet still have fun, etc, so me saying that a DM must tailor make its encounters for spellcasters isnt saying much. But, where I think there is a different is that a DM couldnt use some tactics on their lower level PC's that they normally use (such as surprising at night, and giving big bad besties that have high saves and melee attacks). Also, what about a covey of archers (very common low level encounter)? Spellcaster (if they were surprised and didnt know where the archers were) would get pummelled until they found them (4 archers targeting one spellaster COULD (with some luck ) kill a sorc. in ONE round; it would take much more luck to kill one fighters with shields in ONE round).

Also if two of those fighters (battling the white dragon) had bows and two keeped their axes then what then? I talked about a bow for the strafing dragon (it could strafe that long getting pummelled with 2 bows, and if it went in for a melee attack it would get an AOO from the axe weilders). The Ref. save was +4 and the DC of the breath is 12 (and it does 1d6 damage; at least in my 3.5e MM).. so the fighters may be able to hold out.. but like I have said before melee classes are oviously NOT necessary. but they DO SHINE )and that must be admitted)

 

[Belzbet]

Actually, I've heard it's less just lvl 1, but the lower level in general, up to 5th, although i'd say it stops more at about 3rd. And, as mentioned, if you include splat books and optimization, it becomes different. For example, I once made a Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 for a game starting at level 3, and slaughtered a lot of people, and dominated the game compared to the caster. I gave him EWP: Fullblade, and Monkey Grip. With 21 Strength, he was doing 4d8+7 with his oversized butter knife.

I agree with thisthis... Yeah non-core has some VERY GOOD options for fighters (and since they dont have a limit in the amount of things to do (spells to cast) they can be useful throughout the day every day... Maybe the perspective that i am coming from on this thread is looking at the melee classes in the group I Dm, which I let most any book in, and they are very good (and were much more superior to the spellcasters at lower levels). On top of that im Dming a highpowered campaign which a high ability point buy (two 18 are common).

 

[Belzbet]

I must that that the funny thing is that I have been arguing the worth of melee classes with Dandu however i LOVE spellcasters and almost every time play a wizard

 

[Dandu]

I do agree that melee classes are best at lower levels and start to lag behind starting around level 8.