Replacing the Fighter

[Belzbet]

I am going to admit right now that this is not a perfect model, and there are things I have not accounted for, but this is why I think an all caster party would not be doomed from the start.

Yeah I dont think they are doomed... and it is not the perfect model (since there is little variation with magic missile but huge variation [crits. mainaly] with attacks the battle could have gone alot different one crit could knock out a sorc.). But sorcs. can hold their sway (yah for sleep and magic missile!). but it must be admitted that melee PC's do shine in lower levels, a group of fighter (especially a group with one burly cleric) would survive longer...I dont think we need to go through it...

 

[Belzbet]

By the way do people ever get games going here (on this legacy thread i mean)?

 

[Dandu]

wht about a against a wyrmling white dragon? fight a Drow then two orcs and after a wyrmling (or just the drow then the wyrmling)?

What CR is a wyrmling white dragon?

Let's see...

Drow
+1 init, +1 Ref, +1 Will (vs sleep), +1 balance, AC 16, 4 HP, +3 melee 1d6+1 damage, +2 ranged 1d4 damage. DC 13 fort save vs knockout.

Assuming he ambushes the party and hits #1, he suffers a Magic Missile to the face for most of his HP followed by some Grease to keep him in his place. He is likely to fall to the Grease, which allows three, possibly 4, people to shoot him full of arrows. Cleric patches people up and we're good.

2 Orcs
-2 will save. Vulnerable to Sleep. +0 Ref and +0 balance. Vulnerable to Grease. 8 Int. Vulnerable to anyone with a brain.

#1: 4
#2: 2
#3: 2
#4: 2

Wyrmling White Dragon
This is a CR 2 encounter, but dragons are notoriously under CR'd. It's likely CR 4... which a level 1 party is highly unlikely to win against.

It has 22 HP, AC 14, +5 attack, bite 1d6 damage, 2 claws 1d4 damage, 2d10 cold breath weapon (DC 15), Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3. Immune to sleep and paralysis. The party would probably lose.

On the other hand, there's not much a party of 3-4 dwarven fighters could do if the dragon decided to strafe them to death. This is more of an issue with dragons being really strong than anything.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Eh, the CR system doesn't always work well. Supposedly it's meant to go along with balanced groups, but we all know that with the typical fab four group the wizard and cleric will have plenty of spells that can make even high-end encounters laughable.

 

[Belzbet]

What CR is a wyrmling white dragon?

On the other hand, there's not much a party of 3-4 dwarven fighters could do if the dragon decided to strafe them to death. This is more of an issue with dragons being really strong than anything.

With a +4 Ref. bonus they win the breath DC (12) 65% of the time also with 2 elven fighter having high Dex and longbows (the other two having slings) and AC 16 (17 with high dex) the dragon may lose to the fighters (especially if it strafed them with bites (+5 to hit, which means they would onyl hit the fighters with shields 30% of the time and the bowmen 45%) since movinglike that may provokes Aoo's from the fighters and a breath isonly usable 1d4 rounds... so maybe the fighters could win (1d8 average 4 damage will take out a wyrmling in 5 rounds (that is if ONLY one hit in any one round; and these fighter have a 50% chance to hit the dragon of AC 14), the wyrmling probaly couldnt kill all five in 5 rounds and the drow and orcs would be chump change for the fighters...

 

[Belzbet]

I know this isnt how it is in a real game but if EVERY combatant took 10 on their rolls then the fighter would win and the spellcaster would lose... this is so becasue the dragon couod barely even affect teh fighters (10+4=14 which the dragons breath DC is 12 so only 5 damage at the most from this attack). The dragon has +5 to attack 10+5=15 which CANNOT hit the fighters ... The sorcs. have higher AC than 15 (when mage armored) but thats not 100%... and the sorcs cannot sruvive as many breaths (even if you gave them lightning reflexes; sinc they have 5 less HP). Also the fighters have enough gp to get a longbow and armor the sorcs do not... Also the fighters have +4 to attack the AC of the dragon is 14. That is a hit everytime (if we take 10). So the fighter, I would say, have a HIGHER (at least) chance to win the encounter... Although 4 magic missiles each round for 3 rounds would be devistating for a wyrmling... so i dont know when push comes to shove (if the sorcs. were at full power they could take it, maybe with one dieing, but at full power they could not take it, even though the fighters could take it even at partial power)... so my main point is that fighters increase survivability at lower levels when encounters are spread out across the day (yeah if the spellcasters get to re-up then they will do good)...

 

[xigbar]

Actually, I've heard it's less just lvl 1, but the lower level in general, up to 5th, although i'd say it stops more at about 3rd. And, as mentioned, if you include splat books and optimization, it becomes different. For example, I once made a Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 for a game starting at level 3, and slaughtered a lot of people, and dominated the game compared to the caster. I gave him EWP: Fullblade, and Monkey Grip. With 21 Strength, he was doing 4d8+7 with his oversized butter knife.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, here's a sample Fighter. Only thing left really is to figure out a better starting feat and what to do with the half of his starting wealth I haven't spent yet. I'm thinking Mule army.

[sblock]Fireblood Dwarf (Humanoid [dragonblooded])
HP: 15 (d12 +3)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
AC: 18 (10 +6 armor +2 dex)
Touch: 12; FF: 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +2, Wil +0 (+2 vs. Spells/Sp)
BAB +1; Grapple +4; Initiative +2
Speed: 20 ft

Dwarven Warpike +5 (2d6 +4, 20/x3, S or P, reach, trip, brace)
Dwarven Waraxe +5 (d10 +3, 20/x3, S)
Throwing Axe +4 (d6 +3, 20/x2, S, 10 ft)
Sling +3 (d4 +3, 20/x2, B, 50 ft)
Club +3 (d6 +3, 20/x2, B, 10 ft)

Feats: Axe Focus (Weapon Focus with all axes), Combat Reflexes?

Skills:
Craft (weapons) +6 (4 ranks +2 int) (+2 metal/stone items)
Handle Animal +3 (4 ranks -1 cha)
Intimidate +3 (4 ranks -1 cha)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6 (4 ranks +2 int)

Languages: Common, Dwarven, two more

Gear:
Dwarven Warpike
Dwarven Waraxe
Throwing Axe
Sling
- 20 Bullets
Clubs (6)
Wooden Extreme Shield (+3 AC)

Fireblood Dwarf: +2 Con, -2 Cha, Medium, always speed 20 ft, Darvision 60 ft, +4 dodge AC vs. dragons, Fire resist 5, +2 saves vs. spells and Sp, Weapon Familiarity (Warpike, Waraxe), Stability, +1 attack vs. orcs/goblinoids, +2 Appraise and Craft (metal and stone items).

Notes:
Swapped Armor proficiencies for Dragonscale Husk. Gives +6 AC and counts as medium armor at level 1.
Dwarf Fighter sub. Level uses d12 HD, replaces feat with Axe Focus, and has dungeoneering as a class skill.
Replaced Urgosh proficiency with Warpike.
Exotic Shield Proficiency says a Fighter can replace Tower Shield Proficiency for it.[/sblock]

Designed to be versatile, he can switch between using his pike and waraxe + shield as needed. The latter costs about 2 damage and loss of reach, but adds +3 AC.

 

[Dandu]

Belzbet, it seems to be taking your fighters 5 rounds of constant firing to kill the dragon. That's enough time for two breath weapons assuming the dragon opened with one. I'm not so sure the fighters would win.

For example:

Dragon breaths on people, and advanced into melee with the party I believe your suggested composition was 2 dwarves and two elves? I'm not sure on their exact stats, so feel free to correct this scenario if I'm off.


Party shoots the dragon. You have two elves using longbows and two dwarves using slings. Let's say the elves hit it, dealing 9 damage. Dragon is at HP 13.

Breath weapon time. Everyone takes 11 damage, on average, on a failed save. +2 or +3 reflex vs DC 15 reflex save means that's a distinct possibility. That's most of a fighter's HP... it's probably going to knock out any elves in the group unless they put a 16 in Con. If this happens, the party's down by two members.

The remaining dwarf fighters, say, of Con 16, have 2 HP each. They can try to drink potions, which means the dragon gets to full attack them with +5 bite and 2 +0 claws, or initiate grapple, a touch attack.

This is not good. This is really not good.

Assuming everyone succeeds on their reflex save and takes 5 damage, the party is now in melee with a dragon. And they are armed with ranged weapons. This is also not good.

It gets kind of complex from here, as the party can continue to shoot at it, take a round to switch weapons, take a round to drink healing potions... or maybe the dragon decided that, since he failed to soften up the party, he would fly away until his breath weapon comes back and he can try to wipe out half the party again. It can burrow, after all, so hiding from the archers is probably a valid tactic.

I personally would not be too optimistic.

But assuming the fighters do win... well, there's also some monsters that would kill a fighter only party but would be easily defeated by spellcasters. Bat Swarms, for example.

 

[Hunter99]

A fighter is definitely not necessary in a party, neither is the thief.

They can both be replaced by characters who can be more useful and can contribute more to the party.

In fact a party of four consisting of a druid, cleric, wizard and beguiler can meet any challenge of it's level.

The druid and the cleric can fill in the melee role, while a beguiler can support as a caster and provide any thieving skills needed. The beguiler's spell list is also pretty decent.