Jackinthegreen
Explorer
A Fighter's starting gold is 6d4 x 10 oddly enough. The average goes up 25 g to 150g, but that won't change things much.
Replacing the Fighter
- Thread starter Dandu
- Start date
A Fighter's starting gold is 6d4 x 10 oddly enough. The average goes up 25 g to 150g, but that won't change things much.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Well, Fighters start w/ higher WBL at level 1. 
I realize it affects any class roughly evenly anyway, but I figured you'd want to build your example accurately, to make critique of it more difficult.
On that note, what deity with the War domain has Bastard sword as a favored weapon? If you have no deity, the PHB gives weapons for each alignment. You could easily get a longsword war domain and it'd just be -1 damage, so again not a big deal. Just curious.
I realize it affects any class roughly evenly anyway, but I figured you'd want to build your example accurately, to make critique of it more difficult.
On that note, what deity with the War domain has Bastard sword as a favored weapon? If you have no deity, the PHB gives weapons for each alignment. You could easily get a longsword war domain and it'd just be -1 damage, so again not a big deal. Just curious.
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
Going through Complete Divine shows none of the standard deities have the bastard sword as a favored weapon. The longsword is a different story. Heironeous prefers it and grants access to the Good, Law, and War domains.
For easy comparison let's build a similar fighter:
Barnir the Strong and Fair (dwarf)
Fighter 1
STR: 18 DEX: 10 CON: 16 INT: 13 WIS: 10 CHA: 6 (32pt buy, same as your cleric)
HP: 15 (racial substitution)
Saves: FORT: +5, REF: +0, WILL: +0 (+2 vs spells, spell like and poison)
Feats:
1. Power Attack (could use it at first lvl since fighter has a Bab of 1)
1. Weapon Focus: all axes (racial substitution)
Equipment:
Dwarven Waraxe (30 gp)
Heavy Wooden Shield (7 gp)
Scale Mail (50 gp)
63 gp left for secondary weapon and gear
Using shield
Attack: +6, 1d10+4 damage (or +5, 1d10+5 damage with power attack)
AC: 16 (same as your cleric should have (5 for breastplate +1 for light shield?)
Without shield
Attack: +6, 1d10+6 damage (or +5, 1d10+8 damage with power attack)
AC 14
This fighter seems like a superior warrior, with not that much of a hit in his saves because of his dwarvyness. Hits better, deals more damage and has more hitpoints with an equal AC (assuming your cleric changes his gear as appropriate for first lvl, probalbly same as this fighter but with a bastard or longsword instead of the dwarven waraxe.)
However BSF does not have acces to spells and therefor has less options then your cleric.
After this comparison though I still agree with you that it's nonsense that a party NEEDS a fighter to get to lvl 2. Your cleric should be fine to compensate the fighters toughness and so what if it takes a round longer to kill the three goblins and their dog. You can heal afterwards and cast bless to make the entire party more effective.
Dandu
First Post
Thank you for providing a sample fighter! That helps a lot.
You're right about the shield, of course. I should have written a heavy steel shield instead of light. Fortunately, the price isn't too different. I think you should give your fighter a heavy steel shield as well; there's really no reason not to.
Also, good catch with Power Attack. I forgot that you could not use it at level one. There's no reason to take it, so that frees up a feat. I wonder what to take...
I know! Protection Devotion!
You're right about the shield, of course. I should have written a heavy steel shield instead of light. Fortunately, the price isn't too different. I think you should give your fighter a heavy steel shield as well; there's really no reason not to.
Also, good catch with Power Attack. I forgot that you could not use it at level one. There's no reason to take it, so that frees up a feat. I wonder what to take...
I know! Protection Devotion!
Last edited:
Yeah go ahead and change it to steel, but personally I rather like having another 13 gp at lvl 1.
That being said i think you should change your breastplate to scale mail aswell, since breastplates are too expensive at lvl 1 (150 gp). That bumps your AC 1 down, however your devotions seems to back that up pretty well.
Are the suggestions purely suposed to be for optimising a lvl 1 cleric to take the fighters role or also taking in mind higher lvls? Cause I personally would buy both those devotions if I knew I was gonna play my cleric for another 10 lvls or so.
That being said i think you should change your breastplate to scale mail aswell, since breastplates are too expensive at lvl 1 (150 gp). That bumps your AC 1 down, however your devotions seems to back that up pretty well.
Are the suggestions purely suposed to be for optimising a lvl 1 cleric to take the fighters role or also taking in mind higher lvls? Cause I personally would buy both those devotions if I knew I was gonna play my cleric for another 10 lvls or so.
Last edited:
I've used "Mage-Brutes" as substitute fighters...lots of fun.
Take a Human PHB Sorcerer (Toad Familiar; Cha/Con/Str or Cha/Con/Dex stats, depending on how you want to use him), put him in Medium to heavy armor, and give him a weapon. Feats: Draconic Heritage & Draconic Breath. I usually choose lightning for its linearity of aiming- easier to keep your allies out of the AoE. (This stunt arguably works even better with Infernal Heritage & Infernal Sorcerer Shout because fewer things are resistant to Sonic attacks.)
Spell choice: doesn't really matter. Make it something useful out of combat, because in combat you're breathing lightning to soften up or eliminate lots of foes and finishing them off with your weapon. Zzap. Zzap. Zzap.
By the time you make it to 2nd level, you MC into a class that gets you your preferred armor & weapon proficiency for free...like Marshal. (Which, BTW, has a 1st level aura that boosts Cha...) Then just keep taking Sorc levels.
If you do the same with a BattleSorc, you don't have the negative mods for your armor and weapon, and you get one less use out of your breath weapon.
Additional fun can be had by multiclassing into another arcane class with spells/day equivalent to the Sorcerer, like Beguiler or War-Mage. Then you can cast some of your spells in armor without issue or taking feats, and you have 2x spells to burn for your Breath (since the feats allow you to convert ANY arcane spell into the breath weapon).
If you multiclass with a Focused Specialist Wizard, you'll be able to take Ultimate Magus and really rack up the spell slots to burn.
Over time, you can add feats like Still Spell or Arcane Strike to the mix, depending upon what you want to do.
(BTW, yes, I'm aware that most optimizers think doing damage with magic is suboptimal. This build isn't about being a caster, its about being an arcane-fueled warrior.)
Take a Human PHB Sorcerer (Toad Familiar; Cha/Con/Str or Cha/Con/Dex stats, depending on how you want to use him), put him in Medium to heavy armor, and give him a weapon. Feats: Draconic Heritage & Draconic Breath. I usually choose lightning for its linearity of aiming- easier to keep your allies out of the AoE. (This stunt arguably works even better with Infernal Heritage & Infernal Sorcerer Shout because fewer things are resistant to Sonic attacks.)
Spell choice: doesn't really matter. Make it something useful out of combat, because in combat you're breathing lightning to soften up or eliminate lots of foes and finishing them off with your weapon. Zzap. Zzap. Zzap.
By the time you make it to 2nd level, you MC into a class that gets you your preferred armor & weapon proficiency for free...like Marshal. (Which, BTW, has a 1st level aura that boosts Cha...) Then just keep taking Sorc levels.
If you do the same with a BattleSorc, you don't have the negative mods for your armor and weapon, and you get one less use out of your breath weapon.
Additional fun can be had by multiclassing into another arcane class with spells/day equivalent to the Sorcerer, like Beguiler or War-Mage. Then you can cast some of your spells in armor without issue or taking feats, and you have 2x spells to burn for your Breath (since the feats allow you to convert ANY arcane spell into the breath weapon).
If you multiclass with a Focused Specialist Wizard, you'll be able to take Ultimate Magus and really rack up the spell slots to burn.
Over time, you can add feats like Still Spell or Arcane Strike to the mix, depending upon what you want to do.
(BTW, yes, I'm aware that most optimizers think doing damage with magic is suboptimal. This build isn't about being a caster, its about being an arcane-fueled warrior.)
Last edited:
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Basically. I don't get the point of the thread. None of the classic 4 are required to play. If they were, other classes wouldn't exist. To a much less effective degree than the example cleric replacing a fighter, I have on numerous occasions ended up being the "party mage" as a rogue w/ UMD because no one was playing an arcanist. We managed to survive, too.
I can build a sample Fighter that's just plain better in combat than the cleric if you want, to the extent that the cleric's CLW spells might not make up the difference if you like. Don't see why you need the most optimized big stupid fighter for the role anyway, though. And using splat books definitely helps cleric more....
Similar Threads
D&D 5E (2024)
Hobgoblin warriors
