Reports and News from D&D XP

[Vocenoctum]

What innuendo? You obviously think I have some kind of agenda. Like you, I tire of innuendo easily and thus, I am tired of yours. Out with it then. Tell me what you think my hidden agenda/point/innuendo/motive is, here.

Here. I'll even help you by *telling* you:

In my view, people should *always* turn a critical eye toward these kinds of statements when they come from *any* source. This is not because of some kind of slanted distrust. This is a basic obligation as a responsible consumer. and certainly a prerequisite for making responsible statements.

Whenever someone brings up that D&D is doing well, you begin undermining it with your innuendo about how insignificant D&D is to Hasbro. I'm not sure why you consider it your duty to be the "responsible consumer" and help folks by showing them how D&D isn't doing well when they say it is.

That means that when people cleave to broadly defined or ill-defined statements, it's responsible to say, "Wait just a minute, here. What do we really know?" and present alternatives -- to generate discussion in many directions.

You're still avoiding what was actually said, that "D&D is better than ever" will mean a general tendency to keep going on the path D&D is treading. No one is saying "D&D is better than ever" means anything concrete, you're just using that as the same strawman, just like saying you're accused of calling people liars for "questioning The Man".

Who exactly brought up "the failure of D&D in the marketplace?" besides you?

You brought up the layoffs. Why are the layoffs important to a D&D thread-point if you're not insinuating that it's D&D related? Of course, since there's no way to connect them, you've just got innuendo to run with, nay?

So then, benefit of the doubt, what do the layoffs the last time "D&D is doing better than ever" have to do with D&D at all then?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Suffice it to say that Iron Heroes mixes admirably with Old School Grognard D&D Adventures.


<snip>

That's why I like Greyhawk material... Because it's usuable, even if I'm not playing in Greyhawk.

Just a sidebar, but how well does newer material sync with Iron Heroes? I've got a couple players that like it, but wondered about long term additions since it's not "supported" anymore. Does it lend itself well to new material additions as well as converting of the old GH flavor?

Thanks.

 

[Erik Mona]

That's why I like Greyhawk material... Because it's usuable, even if I'm not playing in Greyhawk.

Bingo.

--Erik

 

[MerricB]

That's why I like Greyhawk material... Because it's usuable, even if I'm not playing in Greyhawk.

And it's why Greyhawk material, when it deviates from this, tends to drop in value considerably. I'm looking at you, Greyhawk Wars, and Ivid the Undying.

Greyhawk has been at its best when doing strong thematic adventures.

Cheers!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

You mean the same reason that I'm a commentator and not an artist?

Cheers!

Someone needs to cut back on snacktime! That vampire mouse wouldn't even get off of the ground.

Olaf the Stout

 

[eyebeams]

Whenever someone brings up that D&D is doing well, you begin undermining it with your innuendo about how insignificant D&D is to Hasbro. I'm not sure why you consider it your duty to be the "responsible consumer" and help folks by showing them how D&D isn't doing well when they say it is.

Actually, I haven't made any definitive statements about how D&D is doing at all. And there's no innuendo; Hasbro's last annual report for FY 2005 gives D&D little to no mention, and the 4thQ release doesn't mention D&D. As I said earlier, this may have to do with the presentation style and not relative earnings of the brand.

You're still avoiding what was actually said, that "D&D is better than ever" will mean a general tendency to keep going on the path D&D is treading.

This is too vague to parse. "The path D&D is treading?" Marketing will naturally change according to quarterly and annual results. I believe Mike Mearls mentioned even more frequent updates at R&D meetings. D&D will *never* have the same kind of marketing and releases from year to year.

I can't address your remark because I don't understand its substance. Are you saying D&D will have the same kind of ads? Release the same kind of products? Use the same rules? What are you saying, exactly?

No one is saying "D&D is better than ever" means anything concrete, you're just using that as the same strawman, just like saying you're accused of calling people liars for "questioning The Man".

A strawman is a point that bears no relevance to the argument at hand. Since the argument at hand is about the "best year ever" claim, saying that discussing it is a strawman is by definition erroneous.

If Umbran would care to tell me why he brought up opinions about the honesty of folks at WotC when I didn't I can respond to your other issue.

You brought up the layoffs. Why are the layoffs important to a D&D thread-point if you're not insinuating that it's D&D related? Of course, since there's no way to connect them, you've just got innuendo to run with, nay?

No, I'm just have no interest in the impossible task of definitively proving a negative. I also can't prove that invisible Martians don't control world governments or that Monte Cook isn't a robot, but that doesn't bother me much either. I'm sure you'll take this as a cop out; that's fine with me.

(I'm happy to discuss these things with people who do *not* demand proof of a negative, though.)

In fact, in a rational discussion the burden is on you to assert a positive claim -- and you have. You have asserted I have a secret grudge against D&D that I'm using "innuendo" to fulfill even though I sell compatible products, play my Monk/Rogue once a week, and Mike Mearls and I are friended to each other over on livejournal.

 

[Pbartender]

Just a sidebar, but how well does newer material sync with Iron Heroes?

In a word, it works just fine... Look to the d20 Modern, d20 System & OGL Games forums or the official Iron Heroes forum for elaboration.

And it's why Greyhawk material, when it deviates from this, tends to drop in value considerably. I'm looking at you, Greyhawk Wars, and Ivid the Undying.

Greyhawk has been at its best when doing strong thematic adventures.

Oh, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[grodog]

Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.

However, I get the impression that Greyhawk's lack of emphasis from WotC isn't so much because Greyhawk doesn't sell, but that it doesn't sell ENOUGH to warrant the increased attention.

It sold nearly as well as the flagship setting (FR): if that's not good enough, what is? Now, I have no objections (well, no rational objections ) to WotC doing a) whatever they want with their lines, and b) making a marketing decision that GH isn't the line that they want to support. I do object to the "GH sales are weak" excuse and its perpetuation as a reason to justify moving away from the setting: if you're ditching GH and its fan base, be up-front about it at least

It's not WotC's job to make Greyhawk fans happy (which has proven somewhat difficult to do . . . unless your name is Paizo), it's WotC's job to sell as many D&D books as possible by keeping D&D fans happy. All Greyhawk fans are D&D fans, but not all D&D fans are Greyhawk fans . . . which is an important distinction.

Absolutely true. But managing your customers' expectations with trust and appreciation, even when you're moving a product line into and end-of-life/end-of-service phase, is crucial to shifting your customers from your now-defunct products to your current/supported ones. WotC still hasn't managed that with GH, and perhaps never will. Customer perception is everything, including the erroneous perception that GH's sales were weak

 

[grodog]

So Merric, no news of 4e at D&D XP?

 

[Imaro]

People who think Eberron is a failure are like people who think Third Edition is a failure.

Not to be snarky but... do we have any hard evidence for this type of assumption? I for one liked the ECS book, but after that found my purchases of the Eberron line quickly decreased, then stopped alltogether as I discovered settings that had a higher quality(for me) such as Iron Kingdoms and Dark Legacies with a more manageable production schedule (personally I prefer a lower release schedule with higher quality than the opposite). I also realized I am not a fan of "everything " worlds, just my preference.

Without knowing what percentage of total D&D sales are actual Eberron products, and then comparing said sales figures to Forgotten Realms, Exalted, or something else as popular how can a statement on rather it is doing well or not be made?