Saeviomagy said:
The lammasu entry (at least in the SRD) contains two creatures. One is a lammasu. It has up to 8 - 21 hit dice. The other is celestial half-dragon lammasu called a golden protector. It has up to 11 - 30 hit dice. Just like the green dragon entry contains a wyrmling at 6-7 hit dice and a very young at 9-10 hit dice.
Correct. Which has nothing to do with advancing the normal lammasu. An advanced lammasu uses the Advancement line in the lammasu text, not the alternate classed lammasu. When you advance the lammasu, it must follow the advancement outlined in its stat block. This is very important to my point.
Ok, perhaps I should reverse my example. Does a simulacrum of a 16hd golden protector have the stats of a regular, non celestial, non half-dragon lammasu?
Celestial and Half-dragon are templates, so they don't matter to the discussion unless you think a dragon age category is like a template. If you do, then there isn't much more to discuss because I completely disagree with this line of thought. They are a function of the dragon's hit dice according to the Advancement column.
If it said that all lammasu over 10 Hit Dice gained the Celestial Template, then I would conversely say that any lammasu under 10 Hit Dice would lose the Celestial Template. Just like they would lose extra feats, skill points, BAB, etc. Unless you think that they would keep the feats, skill points, BAB, etc. At which point, we are at serious odds again about how we handle this.
This IS what you're saying, that you look up what monster you end up with based on the hit dice that the simulacrum has. Presumably you also stick to the same heading in the monster manual when you do it - I'm not sure, you've not fully explained your house rule.
Tsk tsk, I think you need to re-think your house rule. See, I can do that too.
See - now you're adding qualifiers. You're making up a brand new rule that says "dragon age is dependant upon hit dice". Now you're saying "but not class hit dice".
You are confused as to what I am saying, I will try to be more clear. Age Category has nothing to do with the physical age of the dragon, it is instead a product of how many hit dice a dragon has exactly like BAB, saving throws, etc.
Again, as an example, take a hypothetical Medium creature that has 8 HD and its Advancement states that when it gains 11 HD it becomes Large. The HD referred to here are the creature hit dice, so if it gains 3 levels of fighter, it will not increase in size, if it gains 3 monsterous hit dice (of whichever type it is), then it will increase to Large size.
So no, dragon Age Category is dependant on its Advancement, not how many generic Hit Dice it has. Perhaps I should use Monserous Hit Dice in the future to avoid ambiguity.
Unless you believe that the hypothetical creature grows to Large size when taking fighter levels, at which, we are at an impass again.
So far you've not made an interpretation - you've made up a new, very vague, rule. I'm pointing out the implications of it.
I think we can agree that they did not
explicitly say how to handle
simulacrum with a dragon. What I am attempting to do is to figure out what RAW says about the matter. My reference point is the Advancement text under the creature description. In order to "de-Advance" the creature I am reverse-engineering this and using it to draw a conclusion as to how to handle lowering a creature's HD. I also would decrease the size category if need be.
Please supply your reference point.
The current rules are that each creature within the MM that has it's own stat block/stat line is a single, seperate creature with all that entails. You can polymorph into a specific age category of dragon, each one has different stats etc etc.
Please give text to support your statement with regard to dragon Age Category.
When you make a simulacrum, it's the same as the original creature EXCEPT it has half the hit dice/class levels.
Right. Would you also leave BAB, saving throws, etc, the same?
Nope. Not at all. You can certainly have a young black dragon with 14 hit dice. One of the bardic music effects adds 2 hit dice. Would that suddenly make the dragon older? Or would you just end up with a young black dragon with 14 hit dice? Beyond that, adding class levels adds hit dice.
The dragon does not gain an Age Category. The Hit Dice gained are not MHD, they are unnamed HD (of d10).
EDIT:
By the way, dragons of different age categories can't be different creatures because the share the same stat block:
SRD said:
BLACK DRAGON
Dragon (Water)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2–5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1–2 and 2–5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 3; very young 4; young 5; juvenile 7; young adult 9; adult 11; mature adult 14; old 16; very old 18; ancient 19; wyrm 20; great wyrm 22
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: Wyrmling 5–6 HD; very young 8–9 HD; young 11–12 HD; juvenile 14–15 HD; young adult 17–18 HD; adult 20–21 HD; mature adult 23–24 HD; old 26–27 HD; very old 29–30 HD; ancient 32–33 HD; wyrm 35–36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +3; very young +3; young +3; juvenile +4; others —
I know of no creatures that share a stat block that are different creatures.
