Request for help: Simulacrum

[moritheil]

Here's a good one. Would you expect a simulacrum of a person to create a younger version of that person? If you simulacra a 30-year old, do you end up with a 3-year old (the equivalent if we're talking about an adult green to a 10hd very-young green)?

Hmm. The DM can always say that there ARE no adult green dragons with 10 HD. So, strictly speaking, he can argue that your spell simply produces nothing, if he feels like being difficult.

This problem exists because people do not advance in ability by age, but dragons do.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Hmm. The DM can always say that there ARE no adult green dragons with 10 HD. So, strictly speaking, he can argue that your spell simply produces nothing, if he feels like being difficult.

This problem exists because people do not advance in ability by age, but dragons do.

Actually, humans do. IIRC the age tables:

HD str dex con int wis cha BAB Saves
Young human as class 10 10 10 10 10 10 as class as class
Middle Aged human as class 8 8 8 11 11 11 as class as class
Old Human as class 6 6 6 12 12 12 as class as class
Venerable Human as class 4 4 4 13 13 13 as class as class

Therefore we do advance with age.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hmm. The DM can always say that there ARE no adult green dragons with 10 HD. So, strictly speaking, he can argue that your spell simply produces nothing, if he feels like being difficult.

He'd be right for the first part. There are no adult green dragons with 10hd.

The second part, however, is just totally wrong. How many 4hd behirs are there? Does simulacrum simply fail on any non-advanced creature? He can argue 'till he's blue in the face, but that just makes him more of an ass.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I personally don't use age category as a defining feature of the creature you are copying. In other words, you arn't making an illusory duplicate of an adult green dragon. You are making an illusory duplicate of a green dragon. I would calculate the Hit Dice that you can make, then look on the table for what this means second.

This is extremely debated. Choose which way you want to do it and go with it, and you can back up your claims either way. It doesn't really matter which you choose, more that you are consistant in your application of the rules.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I personally don't use age category as a defining feature of the creature you are copying. In other words, you arn't making an illusory duplicate of an adult green dragon. You are making an illusory duplicate of a green dragon. I would calculate the Hit Dice that you can make, then look on the table for what this means second.

No. You are making an illusory duplicate of THE DRAGON THAT YOU HAVE A PIECE OF. The spell makes a copy of the creature. It doesn't make a 3 year old when you're trying to copy a 30 year old. It doesn't make a 15 year old when you try to copy a 150 year old.

This is extremely debated. Choose which way you want to do it and go with it, and you can back up your claims either way. It doesn't really matter which you choose, more that you are consistant in your application of the rules.

I really fail to see how your approach is even slightly consistant. Like I said - there are no 4hd behirs. Hell, let's make the example EXACTLY THE SAME. There are no 2hd black dragons. What happens when you copy a 4hd wyrmling black dragon? According to you, simulacrum cannot copy them. Is it really your position that only advanced creatures can be copied?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Rules-wise, I see "age category" as a function of hit dice, not of the physical age of the dragon. They just happen to coincide so that a dragon of a certain age has a certain age category, thus the name. I say this because of the "advancement column" under dragon.

Advancement: Wyrmling 5–6 HD; very young 8–9 HD; young 11–12 HD; juvenile 14–15 HD; young adult 17–18 HD; adult 20–21 HD; mature adult 23–24 HD; old 26–27 HD; very old 29–30 HD; ancient 32–33 HD; wyrm 35–36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD

Thus, a dragon's age and hit dice are linked. A black adult dragon has between 20 and 21 hit dice, and conversely, a black dragon with between 20 and 21 hit dice is of the age category of adult. A dragon with 10 hit dice, is thus going to be a young dragon.

There are no 2hd black dragons. What happens when you copy a 4hd wyrmling black dragon? According to you, simulacrum cannot copy them. Is it really your position that only advanced creatures can be copied?

They will have no age category. What happens then, I havn't thought about, but strange things like this will tend to crop up. That's a problem with the RAW, though, I guess.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Thus, a dragon's age and hit dice are linked. A black adult dragon has between 20 and 21 hit dice, and conversely, a black dragon with between 20 and 21 hit dice is of the age category of adult. A dragon with 10 hit dice, is thus going to be a young dragon.

By your logic, a 21-hit dice lammasu becomes a 22 hit dice half dragon celestial lammasu when it gains a HD. Is that true?

Does a 51-year old young adult dragon that gains 4 levels in sorceror suddenly become 150 years older?

They will have no age category. What happens then, I havn't thought about, but strange things like this will tend to crop up. That's a problem with the RAW, though, I guess.

No, it's a problem with your strange interpretation.

 

[ThirdWizard]

By your logic, a 21-hit dice lammasu becomes a 22 hit dice half dragon celestial lammasu when it gains a HD. Is that true?

By my logic...

Advancement: 8–10 HD (Large); 11–21 HD (Huge)

I believe you should try to understand what I am saying or stop with the straw-men.

Does a 51-year old young adult dragon that gains 4 levels in sorceror suddenly become 150 years older?

Two things. First, by RAW, a dragon cannot advance by character class, including sorcerer. Under advancement they are listed as advancing by hit dice, which is to say they advance by creature type: dragon.

Secondly, since the advancement is considering only creature type: dragon, we cannot use the rules for creature advacement. Unless it is your oppinion that adding class levels to a monster that normally increases size when hit dice are added makes it increase in size as well.

No, it's a problem with your strange interpretation.

Strange? I have yet to see you offer any proof that you are right. You keep claiming that my interprietation is wrong and for me to defend it, yet you can offer no counter proof to the contrary.

EDIT:

By your interprietation, you can have a young black dragon with 20 HD, since you can have an adult black dragon with 10 HD. Is this not as strange or stranger than my stance?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Two things. First, by RAW, a dragon cannot advance by character class, including sorcerer. Under advancement they are listed as advancing by hit dice, which is to say they advance by creature type: dragon.

I beg to differ. Dragons can advance by class. They do in Draconomicon, Savage Species, and even the MM/SRD states that sentient creatures can take class levels but that if one does it "improves according to its class, not its type."

 

[SidusLupus]

Give the simularcum the stats of a dragon half the hd of the original. It keeps whatever ablities it's supposed to, and looks like the original. The only difference is that it's weaker. The spell isn't rez + dominate. It's just a copy, and it happens to be weaker, and for dragons it uses a lower age category, but for the function of the spell is not an age category but simply a power rating.

Thus! Your Simularcum is of the original dragon, but compared in power to a regular living dragon it's the strength of a much weaker younger dragon. Since it is technically made of snow and magic or whatever.