Requesting 'Bluff' Help and others...

[tylermalan]

In a tenuous don't-you-dare-break-this-game manner, yes.

Hahaha right, I gotcha

So I'm assuming there's no rule out there about PCs bluffing and lying to other PCs?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

1) Is there a rule out there somewhere regarding PCs using the Bluff skill against each other, or NPCs using it against PCs? I seem to recall there being something that said that player's don't get bluffed (ie, they don't get the Bluff skill used against them). Instead, they just choose what they want to believe or not. Am I crazy? This would make taking ranks in Sense Motive less of a viable option...

My rule is that Sense Motive checks, like many other social situations are voluntary on the players' part. A player can choose to simply roleplay whether to believe an NPC or the player can choose to 'Sense his Motive', in which case I (the DM) rolls for the character. I then tell the player that his character either believes the NPC or not (I never say "you're not sure"); in neither case is the player required to act upon his character's belief. I use this system because it's simple and does not allow for the possibility of metagaming.

Regarding PC v. PC, rolls are never implemented unless the players are intentionally being goofy. PCs have the advantage of destiny; in game terms this means that they can use social skills against NPCs but such rolls do not affect them.

 

[Li Shenron]

Some of you is overreacting here

After the Sense Motive the DM tells you things like "He sounds quite convincing", "He sounds very honest", "He's definitely telling the truth" or otherwise "He doesn't sound quite convinving", "He sounds very suspicious", "He's not telling everything" or "He's lying".

The point is: what the DM tells may actually NOT be the truth, because you might have failed the Sense Motive and now you get the wrong impression (BTW, some DMs roll your Sense Motive hidden).

But the it's up to the character to choose what to do. The PC may still choose to believe/disbelieve if there's a reason to. Someone may even just not accept the truth for some reason. This doesn't break the game, it's just the player choosing to run a risk: he's told one thing but chooses a course of action that goes against it. This happens in other areas of the game (you discover that the corridor is trapped, but still choose to go this way), why shouldn't it happen in this case? The point is, the character just has to accept the consequences if he doesn't trust his PC's abilities.

 

[Starglim]

Ok, that's what someone said about this debate as well. To which the reply "what happens when a zombie accidentally falls through the crate?" was given. Does the zombie not "see" the illusory crate anymore? Does it know that it isn't real? What about his zombie buddies, who see him fall through it? What do they think about it?

Interesting point! "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw." I don't see why this wouldn't apply to mindless things, so the zombie effectively succeeds on a saving throw and no longer perceives the crate. However I would say that the other zombies are not capable of drawing conclusions from the first zombie's fall through the crate - they don't have the logical capacity to realise that this is not how crates are supposed to behave.

 

[irdeggman]

Ok, that's what someone said about this debate as well. To which the reply "what happens when a zombie accidentally falls through the crate?" was given. Does the zombie not "see" the illusory crate anymore? Does it know that it isn't real? What about his zombie buddies, who see him fall through it? What do they think about it?

What happens to a character that accidently falls through a crate? Does he see the crate? How about his buddies that saw him fall through the crate?

The exact same thing applies here, whether or not the targets are undead or not.



Undead are:

—Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Illusions are:

Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Illusions spells of the subschool pattern or phantasm do not affect undead, all others affect them as if they were an ordinary target. How they react to the knowledge (i.e., saving throw, ractins, etc. is something different and good be played as afunction of their Intelligence - but that applies to any sort of tactic they would apply).

 

[tylermalan]

Regarding Sense Motive:

Its just that, you know, when the DM says "make a Sense Motive check", you know something is up. And then, you just get a response, and no verification of whether or not you failed the check. And then, if the players rolled for their characters instead, a failure is the same as a success, because then if they fail they know that whatever the DM tells them is a lie.

Regarding Illusions:

Well, ok, I get that, and all that makes sense. But, in the description for Silent Image, it says that you get a saving throw, Will, to disbelieve, if interacted with. So what is interacting? I'm sort of interacting with the walls of this room I'm in purely because I'm being bound by them, even though I'm not touching them.

 

[irdeggman]

Regarding Illusions:

Well, ok, I get that, and all that makes sense. But, in the description for Silent Image, it says that you get a saving throw, Will, to disbelieve, if interacted with. So what is interacting? I'm sort of interacting with the walls of this room I'm in purely because I'm being bound by them, even though I'm not touching them.

There was a recent discussion on what "interacting" with an illusion means.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=182178


Try pg 173 of the PHB

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering
an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize
it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some
fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor,
the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped
and studied the floor or if she probed the floor.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false,
but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For
examples, a character making a successful saving throw against a
figment of an illusory section of floor knows the “floor” isn’t safe to
walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she
can still note where the figment lies.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice
something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion
isn’t real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a
section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does
one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any
viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this
fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4
bonus.

 

[Dross]

Regarding Sense Motive:

Its just that, you know, when the DM says "make a Sense Motive check", you know something is up. And then, you just get a response, and no verification of whether or not you failed the check. And then, if the players rolled for their characters instead, a failure is the same as a success, because then if they fail they know that whatever the DM tells them is a lie.

This gets back to meta-gaming the results, and players (and DMs) should try to avoid that. Options to counteract some meta-gaming are:

- Run slightly forward in time before the Sense Motive roll to see what they will do. If the roll provides more info than at the earlier time, allow a rethink of their actions.

- The DM pre-rolls the dice and has the SM modifier for the player. At the appropriate time the DM adds "but you get the feeling that this guy is not trustworthy" if appropriate.

- The player needs to ask for a SM check, otherwise must relie on what the DM has the NPC say.

As to the "no verification whether or not you failed the check" bit, well, not all reuslts are instantly known anyway. A player (IMO) should treat the result as a success unless told otherwise.