Requesting feedback on term META-Gamer

[Vykarius]

Min-Maxing is not inherently a bad thing. I think you are referring to what is know as power gaming or being a munchkin. Many people lump them together, but to me they are different.

Powergaming is making you character as strong as you can. Every group has an acceptable power limit, and you should stay within that limit or try to bring the group up to yours if possible so as not to hurt anyone's feelings

Munchkin uses the most abusable interpretation of a rule to make the most powerful character they can. This is widely frowned upon.

There is some level of metagaming when making characters, but it does not involve player vs character knowledge so most people dont think that is cheating.

Regarding Power Gaming. You said it is making your character as powerful as possible. Why would that approach need a specific title for it? Isn't doing something to the best of your capacity without breaking the rules what most people do with any hobby or skill in this world. The old cliche..."Anything worth doing is worth doing right" or "Give it your best effort" should apply to gaming as well. Why half-ass your way to building a character when you can put some thought into it's development and do the best possible job to make him/her as powerful as you can? Wouldn't anything less make mediocrity your gaming goal for your character? Again to me it seems labels like "power gaming" are derogatory in nature when in fact we should call these gamers terms such as skilled, quality & veterans...titles of decency that compliment their prowess instead of safeguarding the egos of the inadequate or careless character builders by labeling the achievers as somehow approaching character building wrong? It's like criticizing or labeling the Champions of the sporting world to make the lesser athletes feel better about lacking the champion's skill...it just seems backwards and most likely derived by a poor character builder who was jealous of those he/she saw at the table. Just my thoughts.

 

[irdeggman]

>>>don't quite understand your point here. Power attack is easily one of the best feats a melee character can take.If you are saying that one has to suck in order to prove that he is not a min-maxer, then I say it is utter nonsense. There is nothing preventing me from building an optimized character who is good at what he does, and role-playing him properly.<<<

Yeah what I meant was do you have to basically make feat/skill/character building choices unwisely to avoid being labeled a min-maxer or a meta-gamer. Power Attack for a Wizard feat would be an example of an unwise or wasted feat choice in my example. I agree with you 100% that you can make an optimized & efficiently built character and yet still be able to role-play their intricate personality traits with the best of the role-players! I been doing it for most of the last 15-20 years outta 27 gaming lol!

It depends.

Now is the entire point to build ths signl most powerful character you can using all rules available and taking advantage of every single loop hole you can find in the course?

Or is the point to build a character "themeatically" that is a character who has a history, a goal and something that serves as basis to development?

IMO the later is a role-playing basis and choosing fets that fit to this purpose is the ideal way to go, at the same time still trying to make the PC the best possible in the path chosen.

But simply choosing a feat because it is megapowerful without have some tie-in the character is leading to the dark side, IMO.

Example with the heritage feat chains without trying to rationailize a reason why the character has that heritage in his history is short circuiting the system and goals, IMO. I am running a sorcerer/warlock with the fey heritage feat chain. My Dm and I have been playing that the more feats taken along that path increase the phyiscal manifestation of the heritage in the character - so while he is human he his getting more fey type looks about him, more pointed ears, more light skiin, etc. He is basically starting to "look different".

 

[Elethiomel]

When it comes to character building there are several schools of thought. I'll describe two that I think are common.

The first sees class and feat flavor text (fluff) as important and tries to find feats, classes, and prestige classes where the fluff fits the character theme while not being underpowered.

The second sees class and feat fluff as largely irrelevant and tries to find feats, classes, and prestige classes where the mechanics (crunch) fits the character theme without being underpowered.

I belong to this second school of thought. The fluff will often be setting-specific, anyway. Making a character I have an idea of what skills they have picked up during their career, and what they aim to be good at, so I pick up feats and classes to represent that, regardless of what that class or feat says it's supposed to represent.
TL;DR: I see classes and feats as packages of abilities with prerequisites.

Some would consider this second approach to be counter to the spirit of the system, metagaming, or even munchkinism. I don't - but then I largely play in homebrew settings where much of the official fluff is irrelevant anyway.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Regarding Power Gaming. You said it is making your character as powerful as possible. Why would that approach need a specific title for it? Isn't doing something to the best of your capacity without breaking the rules what most people do with any hobby or skill in this world.

If you're simply trying to build the best character you can within whatever bounds you've set, you're optimizing or min/maxing.

If you're trying to build the best character you can in order to deliberately overshadow the other players (i.e. you want to "win" D&D), that's powergaming/munchkinry.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Interestingly, while reading this thread, it seems different people use the words in different ways. "Powergamer" seems to be derogatory to some people, but not an insult to others. Maybe some precise definitions for "optimizer", "min/maxer", "powergamer" and "munchkin" is in order here? Just a $0.02 observation, btw

IMHO, "bad character-building" (whatever term you use!):

1. takes unfair advantage of unclear rules, loopholes, etc for power boosts; and/or
2. completely disregards the spirit of the setting; and
3. makes the game un-fun for others.

A powerful character isn't necessarily a bad character, as long as it fits into the game. This is why I like the give and take between the GM and player: creating a story of how a character evolves and gains that power - like the fey warlock mentioned above - makes the game vastly more entertaining for everyone involved, regarless of how powerful the character ultimately becomes (or doesn't become!).

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Interestingly, while reading this thread, it seems different people use the words in different ways. "Powergamer" seems to be derogatory to some people, but not an insult to others. Maybe some precise definitions for "optimizer", "min/maxer", "powergamer" and "munchkin" is in order here? Just a $0.02 observation, btw

The definitions I've seen most often used are thus:

Optimizer = Min/Maxer = Someone who builds the best possible character within given bounds, whether those bounds are "the best tank," "the best fire mage," or whatever. Usually willing to help people optimize their characters.

Powergamer = Someone who builds the best possible character no matter what; if he happens to overshadow some folks, well, sucks to be them. Usually wants to keep his optimization-fu to himself.

Munchkin = Someone who builds a super-powerful character through use of dubious rules or by outright cheating.

 

[irdeggman]

Interestingly, while reading this thread, it seems different people use the words in different ways. "Powergamer" seems to be derogatory to some people, but not an insult to others. Maybe some precise definitions for "optimizer", "min/maxer", "powergamer" and "munchkin" is in order here? Just a $0.02 observation, btw

IMHO, "bad character-building" (whatever term you use!):

1. takes unfair advantage of unclear rules, loopholes, etc for power boosts; and/or
2. completely disregards the spirit of the setting; and
3. makes the game un-fun for others.

A powerful character isn't necessarily a bad character, as long as it fits into the game. This is why I like the give and take between the GM and player: creating a story of how a character evolves and gains that power - like the fey warlock mentioned above - makes the game vastly more entertaining for everyone involved, regarless of how powerful the character ultimately becomes (or doesn't become!).

I like this outlook and agree with it.

 

[irdeggman]

The definitions I've seen most often used are thus:

Optimizer = Min/Maxer = Someone who builds the best possible character within given bounds, whether those bounds are "the best tank," "the best fire mage," or whatever. Usually willing to help people optimize their characters.

Powergamer = Someone who builds the best possible character no matter what; if he happens to overshadow some folks, well, sucks to be them. Usually wants to keep his optimization-fu to himself.

Munchkin = Someone who builds a super-powerful character through use of dubious rules or by outright cheating.

I also like this simplified set of definitions.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

The definitions I've seen most often used are thus:

Optimizer = Min/Maxer = Someone who builds the best possible character within given bounds, whether those bounds are "the best tank," "the best fire mage," or whatever. Usually willing to help people optimize their characters.

Powergamer = Someone who builds the best possible character no matter what; if he happens to overshadow some folks, well, sucks to be them. Usually wants to keep his optimization-fu to himself.

Munchkin = Someone who builds a super-powerful character through use of dubious rules or by outright cheating.

Nice summary. Thanks!

 

[Vykarius]

The definitions I've seen most often used are thus:

Optimizer = Min/Maxer = Someone who builds the best possible character within given bounds, whether those bounds are "the best tank," "the best fire mage," or whatever. Usually willing to help people optimize their characters.

Powergamer = Someone who builds the best possible character no matter what; if he happens to overshadow some folks, well, sucks to be them. Usually wants to keep his optimization-fu to himself.

Munchkin = Someone who builds a super-powerful character through use of dubious rules or by outright cheating.

Very concise and accurate definition list! Great job! I would definitely fall into the Optimizer classification. I always offer advice and suggestions 2 others re character building etc. and don't understand why anyone wouldn't other than pure insecurity? Look at the terminology for example...Optimizer is an accurate label w/o any derogatory feel to it. I like it.
Thanks again!