Reserve Feats with no "abilty to cast xth level spells" prereqs

[InkwellIdeas]

The reserve feats in the Complete Mage book all require the spellcaster to be able to cast spells of 2nd level, and many have higher level requirements.

Does anyone see some of these that should not that prerequisite, or essentially make lower the requirement to 1st level spells? If so, which reserve feats?

On the other hand, is there some reason I'm missing that 1st level spellcasters should not have access to reserve feats at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[krupintupple]

i'd think because they're a lesser-powered version of whatever spell they're derived from; think of it this way, how much less powerful could you possibly make a 1st level spell and still make it somewhat viable?

extrapolating the trend in reserve feats, that'd leave us with a force feat that borrows on magic missile, that does 1d2 damage at 15 feet? or one powered by burning hands that does 1d3 at 10 feet? it's possible, but i think they avoided it at least until you could do a solid 2d6 at level 3rd.

 

[Jack Simth]

The reserve feats in the Complete Mage book all require the spellcaster to be able to cast spells of 2nd level, and many have higher level requirements.

Does anyone see some of these that should not that prerequisite, or essentially make lower the requirement to 1st level spells? If so, which reserve feats?

On the other hand, is there some reason I'm missing that 1st level spellcasters should not have access to reserve feats at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

So, we take Burning Hands at 1st level, which does 1d4 at that point, and hold it in reserve to power a 1d6 5-foot radius Burst of fire that does... 1d6, from further away, but in a marginally smaller area (4 squares (8, if working in 3d) for Fiery Burst, and six or so for Burning Hands) at will, vs. Burning Hands once. Umm... no. Same goes for nearly all of the other direct-damage ones - at 1st level, the most direct-damage reserve feats are better than the spells available at that level.

Most of the non direct-damage effects are similiar, with a very small handful of exceptions.

Mind you, there is a method in Complete Mage by which a Sorcerer or Wizard can get one of the reserve feats at 1st level, provided the reserve feat only requires 2nd level spells - Precocious Apprentice grants a 2nd level spell slot and a 2nd level spell known to put it in. Sure, casting isn't certain.... but the point is that you're not going to cast it. So if you play a human (or take a flaw), then at 1st level you could potentially be using Fiery Burst or some such.

 

[Nifft]

Targeting.

Look at Fiery Burst, for example. Compare the flexibility of a 1d6 damage 5 ft. burst within 30 ft. vs. what burning hands can do. Now compare how many times per day you can do these two different things. There would be hardly any reason to cast burning hands unless you're facing an optimally arranged bunch of foes -- Fiery Burst deals more damage at better range, with no SR.

Now look at scorching ray: 4d6 damage instead of 2d6. That's a good reason to actually cast the spell. And compare burning hands at 3rd level: the single-target damage is comparable to what Fiery Burst would give you, so even if you can only catch one additional foe in the area, it's a win.

Cheers, -- N

 

[InkwellIdeas]

Maybe I misstated my first post. I totally get that many reserve feats, including those that do direct damage (unless the damage is further scaled back) don't make sense to grant to first level characters because they would do more damage or whatever effect than the spell held in reserve. I'm just wondering if there are some other reserve feats that could (in your opinion) be granted to first level characters.

For example, as a dm, would you have a problem with Aquatic Breath being used by a 1st level character? If you did have an issue with it, could it be scaled back based on the spell level held in reserve that you would allow it?

 

[Nifft]

Ah, I understand.

The short answer is: no, because 1st level is apparently supposed to suck.

The medium answer is: just start your PCs off at 3rd level, so they are at the "tier" where a cool at-will ability is appropriate.

The long answer is: you're going to have a hard time making an ability that's both balanced relative to what a Light Crossbow gives "for free" at 1st-2nd levels, and that scales well enough to be worth a feat at higher levels. Take a look at the Psionic feats for some inspiration -- Speed of Thought or Up the Walls might be appropriate.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jack Simth]

Maybe I misstated my first post. I totally get that many reserve feats, including those that do direct damage (unless the damage is further scaled back) don't make sense to grant to first level characters because they would do more damage or whatever effect than the spell held in reserve. I'm just wondering if there are some other reserve feats that could (in your opinion) be granted to first level characters.

For example, as a dm, would you have a problem with Aquatic Breath being used by a 1st level character? If you did have an issue with it, could it be scaled back based on the spell level held in reserve that you would allow it?

... Aquatic Breath doesn't scale. You pretty much can either breath water, or you can't. Water Breathing is also a 3rd level spell, so picking up the ability to do the same thing indefinitely before you get to the point where you can cast it yourself? Probably not particularly balanced.

But let's go through all the ones in Complete Mage, just for grins.

Acidic Splatter? At 1st level, even with a 1st level spell, it'd be doing 1d6 - which is the same as Magic Missile or Shocking Grasp at that point - all day long. It's not exactly weaker than available spells.

Blade of Force: Eh, this one isn't particularly grand - it's really designed for gishes - but you've got what amounts to half of an at-will Magic Weapon spell (you're only getting one attack per round at that level, and you get +1 damage on it, and there's not much else to use swift actions on at that point), except that it also negates incorporeality (which Magic Weapon doesn't). You've got something as strong as Magic Weapon, except you can use it constantly - again, the effect is better than a 1st level spell.

Born Aloft: While not very grand, it makes very light of most obstacles - and the feat doesn't scale. Castle walls? Not an issue. Bridge out? Who cares? And so on. At a point where you've got Overland Flight available, this isn't an issue... but, oh, wait - you can't get it until you've got fifth level spells....

Clap of Thunder:
If you let a 1st level spell power it, this is Shocking Grasp, plus a status effect, at 1st. No.

Clutch of Earth:
Eh, it doesn't do much useful. This I might let slide... but who cares?

Dimensional Jaunt: No - grappling is about the only method of shutting down low-level casters (without killing them, that is). This is a get-out-of-grapple free feat. No.

Dimensional Reach:
This is very highly situational. At 1st, it doesn't matter - you could just pick the item up anyway 90+% of the time.

Drowning Glance: Doesn't scale, and Exhaustion is a pretty nasty status effect, when it comes down to it.

Face Changer: Does everything Disguise Self does, but with no real duration limit (other than stopping once per minute to renew it - but no visible effects when you're doing so, so....). Again, no.

Fiery Burst: Already went over this one.

Hurricane Breath: If anything, it's stronger if you can have it at 1st level than it is if you can have it at 20th. I might let it work... but who's going to really want to?

Invisible Needle: Okay, this one would be balanced enough - you'll have better luck with a light crossbow, though.

Magic Disruption: ... doesn't really do much with a 1st level spell, although the Concentration check is decidedly annoying at that level, what amounts to a +2 to the save of nearly everyone in the party? That's fairly strong for 1st.

Magic Sensitive: Just cast detect Magic. Really, it's a cantrip. Still, this one isn't exactly game-breaking to use 24-7 at a range of 5 feet....

Minor Shapeshift: One of the few highly useful reserve feats to being with. No, you can't take it at first. There's too many useful things on its list.

Mystic Backlash: One point of damage? Eh, waste of an action, especially if you can touch the target anyway. You're generally better off readying a Magic Missle or something (by a lot). Might let it if someone was insistant.

Shadow Veil:
20% miss chance is just mean. No, you can't have this at 1st.

Sickening Grasp:
-2 to basically all rolls, no save? Umm... no. Not at 1st.

Storm Bolt:
At 1st level, is superior in basically all ways to Shocking Grasp. No.

Summon Elemental: For one, what would you have it summon? For two, regardless of what you brought in, you'd suddenly have no need for a trapfinding rogue. It's one thing to get rid of the trapfinding when the Rogue's reached a point where they're all gone anyway - it's quite another when traps are still significant.

Sunlight Eyes:
Darkvision's a 2nd level spell, and this is superior in a lot of ways (it lets you see through even magical darkness). So no.

Touch of Distraction:
This one I might let fly with lower requirements - it doesn't do much of use, after all. Sickening Grasp is stronger.

Wind Guided Arrows:
Eh, maybe. +2/-2 to an arrow that's shot at a target within ten feet? Not doing much.

Winter's Blast:
Using a 1st level spell to power it, at caster level 1, it's the cold-version of Burning Hands - exactly.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mind you, there is a method in Complete Mage by which a Sorcerer or Wizard can get one of the reserve feats at 1st level, provided the reserve feat only requires 2nd level spells - Precocious Apprentice grants a 2nd level spell slot and a 2nd level spell known to put it in. Sure, casting isn't certain.... but the point is that you're not going to cast it. So if you play a human (or take a flaw), then at 1st level you could potentially be using Fiery Burst or some such.

I can't find that in Complete Mage- could you have meant another sourcebook?

While I agree with the analysis of the other posters comparing effects of reserve feats to 1st level spells, I can see where you might do something like a reserve feat resulting in something like a cantrip-level ability- perhaps even doing away with cantrips altogether.

Examples:

1) A cantrip level attack resulting from such a Reserve feat might only do 1-2 HP of damage, and no associated secondary effects of the spell type.

2) Summon Elemental would become, effectively, summon element- a handfull of water, a breath of air, a non-valuable mineral sample or enough fire to light something small and flammable (say, a candle's worth).

Perhaps there could even be a scaling version of the reserve feats, providing a stripped down version of a power that is as effective as a spell 1/2 or 1/3 the level of the spell used as the reserved spell.

Of course, in each case (cantrip or scaled), you'd still want to keep the "Xth lvl spell" prereq, since that would determine the power of the end effect.

 

[InkwellIdeas]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I picked Aquatic Breath because it is the first non-damage spell that has a low spell level requirement.

Jack: Thanks for going through the whole list, although you probably could have stuck to just the feats with 2nd and 3rd spell level requirements. It seems based on your list then that you do see a few feats where it makes sense to relax the requirement. A couple where the value isn't there for the character, a couple that make sense and a couple that you'd consider and have to think more about.

All: I guess I'm going for something where the player can do something more fun that firing a crossbow. (And it doesn't have to be a damage causing spell.) Since he's spending a feat for it it should be better than firing a crossbow, but it does have to be worse than magic missile or similar of course because the idea is he could cast it at will.

 

[Jack Simth]

Dannyalcatraz: Sorry, it's in Complete Arcane, not Complete Mage. My bad; I get those two confused fairly often - especially considering that, as they cover the same topic, neither of them is "Complete", given that both have stuff not also in the other.

Jack: Thanks for going through the whole list, although you probably could have stuck to just the feats with 2nd and 3rd spell level requirements. It seems based on your list then that you do see a few feats where it makes sense to relax the requirement. A couple where the value isn't there for the character, a couple that make sense and a couple that you'd consider and have to think more about.

Basically; on the whole, the designers made them weaker than the spells needed to power them - which is good - but with several of them, they're so weak that there isn't any use in taking them; with most of them, even calculating for a 1st level spell, they're stronger than 1st level spells.

A handful - Minor Shapeshift and Dimensional Jaunt - are very handy for just about any full caster; several are great for those who want to mix it up in melee, but not really anyone else (Blade of Force comes to mind, but there's others); some are useful only for specific tricks (Summon Elemental to replace a trapfinder, or to use the Magic Item Compendium Vampiric property for infinite out-of-combat healing); some useful only in rather specific circumstances (such as water breathing and Sunlight Eyes); most the rest are flavor items only (due to the action cost for what little they actually do).