Resist versus Protection

[Shin Okada]

This is yet another example of no playtesting in our exalted improved 3.5. Energy resistance in 3.0 was applied per round rather than per attack. Additionally Prot from Energy was uncapped. Hence at higher levels Resist Energy gradually became less useful and Prot from Energy gradually became more, which is as it should be. In 3.5 energy resistances applied per attack instead of per round, which greatly enhanced Resist Energy and they capped Prot from Energy. If you're going to suffer multiple energy attacks, you're almost always better off with Resist Energy.

Is that a big deal at all? Those two are different spells with different mechanics. Protection from Energy is not Greater Resist Energy. It sometimes happens that a higher spell becomes less useful in some degree compared to a lower level spell. For example, Divine Favor (1st-level spell) and Divine Power (4th-level spell) are both there to improve cleric's melee combat capability. A PC Cleric in my party is now at 10th-level. He already has Belt of Giant Strength +6. Now when he casts Divine Favor, it gives +3 attack and +3 damages. Divine Power gives +3 BAB and no additional damages (because Enhancement bonuses to strength do not stack). As he is now 10HD, that BAB increase does not give him additional attacks. This kind of thing happens often. Again, is it a big deal at all?

 

[andargor]

There are better options for traveling to annoying planes. From the Planar Handbook:

• avoid planar effects, Cleric 2, Druid 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 3
• planar tolerance, Cleric 4, Druid 4, Ranger 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 3

The second one is the same as the first, but lasts 1 hour/level. And both affect the whole party, essentially...

EDIT: Hmmm, funny how they are both the same level for Sor/Wiz...

Andargor

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I didn't realize until just recently that Resist Energy increased with level; I always thought it was a flat 10 points of negation and that seemed about right for a 2nd-lvl spell. Now with it going up to 30 points, it does seem a bit excessive IMO. Maybe 20 points would be a better cap. It's definitely a MUCH better spell than I thought.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm not going to try and argue the point, but I thought I'd add some thoughts garnered through actual play. This very issue came up for me recently, so it's fairly fresh in my mind.

Our Party: 12th-level.

My character has access to both Resist Energy and Protection from Energy. Originally I looked at both spells and immediately thought "what a gip! Resist Energy is way better and a level less!" So I prepped Resist and ignored Protection.

That lasted until the very next energy attack that hit me. I think it was a Delayed Blast Fireball. Possibly empowered. The thing hit, on a failed save, for something like 70 points of damage. Even subtracting the 30 points from Resist Energy, I was still hurting something fierce, and the druid's animal companion died outright. Protection from Energy, on the other hand, would have completely nullified that attack.

I still like Resist Energy. It has the advantage of being useful across multiple attacks. If you are facing a warrior with a flaming weapon, or a wizard with a Fire Shield, etc. Resist Energy is your defense. But I am now seriously considering trying to find room for Protection from Energy in my daily repertoire as well. It's extremely valuable to be able to ignore that opening blast/spell without having to hope the cleric can heal you back up before the next big whammy.

 

[Anubis]

Say, you are a 10th-level caster. You see a huge (young adult) red dragon is approaching to you. Which spell would you better to cast on you? Resist Energy? Or Protection from Energy?

Most likely I'd be casting teleport and getting the heck out of there. A Level 10 party would get crushed by a young adult red dragon, and you don't have enough protection from energy castings to change that.

If you're going to wander around in the Elemental Planes, or walk for an hour across inch-deep lava, then resist energy is the way to go. But if you're going to get breathed on by a dragon or blasted with a meteor swarm, then protection from energy will give you a much better chance of survival.

Except if you're fighting people with access to abilities like that, they'll have far more uses of their nasty spells than you have in defense from protection from energy.

What the OP says has merit. I think resist energy gets too powerful too quickly when you compare it to protection from energy. Maybe protection from energy should have a higher cap or perhaps last longer. On the other hand, I mass resist energy is far better (and broken IMO).

Actually, my point isn't that resist energy is overpowered, but that protection from energy is pointless. Make resist energy a Level 3 spell and be done with it would be my suggestion.

It does indeed seem that they legitimately serve two functions, as mentioned before. Of course, what you normally want is BOTH spells.

Perhaps, but in any case resist energy is still more powerful, on average, than protection from energy. Even if you kept both spells, resist energy should be higher in level than protection from energy.

Assume you're an 11th level wizard, so both spells are at max effectiveness, and you know you're about to face a young adult red dragon (CR 13). It will use its 10d10 breath weapon at least once, possibly twice. Which spell do you cast, if you can only pick one?

The problem with that is that the book is wrong about the CR of the dragon. Anyone who thinks a young adult red dragon is CR 13 is nuts. If I were a betting man, and I had to bet on a Level 13 party or a young adult red dragon, I'd be betting on the dragon.

 

[maggot]

I've noticed this problem too: in 3.5 the second level spell (Resist) is better in all most all cases than the third level spell (Protection). In 3.0, Resist was a flat amount and lasted only 1min/level, while Protection had no cap, just 12hp/level. People rarely took Resist. With 3.5 they pumped up Resist in duration and effect, and limited Protection. Now people rarely take Protection.

My advice would be one of the following: limit Resist to 1min/level, don't scale resist, or don't cap Protection. Any one of those would restore the balance.

 

[melkorspawn]

And here I thought I was playing D&D to find a place to escape from derivatives on the weekends... Clearly I was mistaken.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know if that's the right way to look at it. My thought when I saw the 3.5 revision was: Finally, Resist Energy is worth prepping. OK, so everyone else here probably thinks that too. The point of it is that the balance issue is not only Resist Energy vs. Protection From energy; it is also Resist Energy vs. the other 2nd level spells and protection from energy vs. the other 3rd level spells.

I don't think there's a problem with resist vs. other 2nd level spells anymore. It's in the top tier--my 13th level cleric preps remove paralysis, spiritual weapon, healing lorecall, resist energy, and lesser restoration at that level. Any time the party wants more resist energy castings, it hurts to lose my other options. My 5th level cleric generally doesn't prep resist energy. It's a good spell, but there are other 2nd level spells he uses more often and there's just not room for it. My wizard characters, on the other hand, generally don't even know it. So, I think it's probably reasonably balanced: it's definitely a top tier second level spell, but not so powerful that everyone should prepare it at every level or that it dominates most characters' spell lists.

Protection from energy, on the other hand, is not one of the top shelf third level spells. An abjurer might learn it because it's one of the few 3rd level abjurations. A cleric with the protection domain will prep it and my clerics and mages would all prep it if we knew we were going up against a powerful mage who prefered a particular kind of energy--knocking 30 points off of an empowered delayed blast fireball just isn't that impressive. (However, energy immunity is a pretty good option for that situation as well and might be preferred).

So, I'd say the problem isn't that resist energy is too good. It seems about right for a 2nd level spell (judging by how I handle the opportunity costs). Protection from energy, on the other hand, is rather weak for a 3rd level spell. So the solution should be to beef up protection from energy. Removing the cap would make it more attractive at high levels. Making it 15 or 20hp/level would make it more attractive at lower levels. (Which is usually where it suffers vis a vis resist energy--at high levels, the opportunity cost of the 3rd level slot is lower since 3rd level spells are no longer viable top shelf offense and the likelihood of running into things like empowered cones of cold and maximized flame strikes is a lot higher). Making it 1 hour/level instead of 10 min/level would also make it a lot more attractive, but a lot of DMs probably wouldn't appreciate seeing it as an all day buff.

I've noticed this problem too: in 3.5 the second level spell (Resist) is better in all most all cases than the third level spell (Protection). In 3.0, Resist was a flat amount and lasted only 1min/level, while Protection had no cap, just 12hp/level. People rarely took Resist. With 3.5 they pumped up Resist in duration and effect, and limited Protection. Now people rarely take Protection.

My advice would be one of the following: limit Resist to 1min/level, don't scale resist, or don't cap Protection. Any one of those would restore the balance.

 

[Journeyman]

I think the apparent imbalance between Resist and Protect is one of those things that is a lot more apparent on paper than it is in actual play.

Resist looks terribly tempting simply because there's no limit to how much damage in can absorb. At level 11 a wizard could theoretically stand in a Wall of Fire punching a cleric with a Fire Shield, while a dozen sorcerers cast Scorching Ray and their pet 12-headed pyrohydra breathes on him, taking no damage. Meanwhile, the poor chump with Protection from Elements is reduced to a cinder.

In terms of actual play, however, Resist never seems to work quite as well. In order for it to really out perform Protection, it has to absorb at least 120 points of damage without any individual source doing more than 30 points, which rarely seems to happen.

The fact is, in game 120 of damage is a lot to take from one element, particuarly if you're playing a wizard or sorcerer. Even spread over multiple encounters that's probably only going to happen if the adventure has a strong elemental theme, in which case the dm is likely counting on you to have some sort of protection. Or if the dm is really trying to kill you.

On the other hand, at 10th level an empowered fireball does an average of 52.5 damage on a failed save. Best case scenario, the wizard with Resist Elements takes some damage. Worst case scenario, this happens when you aren't prepared, and you're casting a spell to protect you from the next fireball, in which case the wizard with Resist prepared instead of Protection could very well die. All requiring nothing but a piddly CR 10 kobold sorcerer.

Overall, I think that Resist is great for the front-lines fighters, who are a lot more likely to be dealing with hydras and Fire Shields and flaming weapons, and who can take a little extra damage if they have to. For a spell caster, though, Protection is often more useful to have prepared, just in case.

Mass Resist is too powerful, though. Maybe it's meant to balance out the Orb spells.

 

[Anubis]

Still, protection from energy runs out, and quickly. It won't help against spellcasters with any sort of backup because they don't stop at one casting.

About the only way to make it a decent spell would be to jack it up to like 6th level and make it like a stronger version of resist energy.