D&D 5E Resisted skill checks !!!

[maritimo80]

I am having some doubts in resisted skill checks.


1) A Wizard can have a small and powerful magic item and a thief who steals it using their skill Sleight of Hands. The two are in a very busy and crowded tavern. The thief rolls against any CD? What CD? Or he makes a resisted roll against the Wizard, but against which the magician's skill?


2) A Fighter's trying to intimidate a monster. The Fighter rolls against any CD? What CD? Or he makes a resisted roll against the Monster, but against which the magician's skill? Intimidation?

 

[77IM]

1) Slight of Hand versus Perception
2) Intimidate versus Wisdom save or Insight (target's choice)

I just made that up. There's no official answer (yet).

 

[Piratecat]

For #2, I think the DM's guideline is: how hard is it for the fighter to intimidate the monster? If it's easy (the big, scary fighter vs some lvl 1 forest gnomes), the DC is 10. If it's moderate (the fighter vs some goblins), it's probably DC 15. If it's hard to ridiculously hard (the fighter vs a troll, or a giant) it's DC 20, 25 or 30.

My questions: what, if anything, happens when a NPC tries to intimidate a PC?

 

[maritimo80]

For #2, I think the DM's guideline is: how hard is it for the fighter to intimidate the monster? If it's easy (the big, scary fighter vs some lvl 1 forest gnomes), the DC is 10. If it's moderate (the fighter vs some goblins), it's probably DC 15. If it's hard to ridiculously hard (the fighter vs a troll, or a giant) it's DC 20, 25 or 30.

My questions: what, if anything, happens when a NPC tries to intimidate a PC?

Good question. But if the two issues were made character against character? How would the opposed roll?

 

[77IM]

Piratecat: Apply the Frightened condition.

 

[Uller]

I think the rules here are purposefully vague so it falls to the DM depending on the situation.

Here is how I would handle either situation:

Sleight of Hand: There are two things you need to determine: 1) Does the character succeed in lifting something from the target and 2) Does the target notice? Any combination of success and failure is possible so there are FOUR possible results: Character gets nothing and the target doesn't notice, Character gets something and the target doesn't notice, Character gets nothing and the target notices the attempt and character gets something and the target notices.

So I would make two checks. The first one to see if the character gets something. The DC would be based on the difficulty. For instance if he is trying to lift nice looking dagger from a sheath that seems pretty easy. DC 10. If he wants to pull something out of an open pocket inside a cloak, that might be tougher: DC 12...if he wants to get a specific item that is well secured that might be pretty hard DC 15.

To see if the target notices (assume the target is actively guarding against pick pockets) I would subtract the DC from the sleight of hand result, add 10 and compare that to the target's passive perception. So, for example: A theif is trying to lift a key from a guard's belt. It's well secured so DC 15. The thief has a SoH total bonus of +7. He rolls a 12 so the result is 19. So he gets the key. Now subtract the DC (15) from the result (19) and add 10. The DC for the guard to notice is 14. His wisdom is only 10 (+0) so his passive perception is 10. He fails.

For intimidate...It depends on the use. Two common uses I can think of: 1) to try to influence a Roleplay situation. 2) To try to influence actions in battle.

Roleplay: Straight up Intimidate vs Insight with advantage/disadvantage applied according to the situation. For instance PC is tryng to intimidate a gate guard to let him through a gate. But the guard is more afraid of his commander than the PC...disadvantage on the check. Conversely the guard is all alone and has no ammunition in his crossbow (this happened to me once in the army...I was a young private guarding an empty tent at night by myself with no ammo...), clearly advantage would be applied.

Combat: I wouldn't yet intimidate be used too much other than to maybe influence a monster's choice of targets or to maybe get one side to hesitate a moment (or get an ally to act). Again it would mostly be Intimidate vs Insight and advantage/disadvantage applied depending on the situation. For instance if the target is unwounded and has a higher level or CR than the character that would likely be disadvantage on the check. If the PC is higher level than the target or it is outnumbered or wounded, then disadvantage...

I probably wouldn't allow NPCs or Monsters to use intimidate against my PCs...just their allies. I'd be pretty ticked if I was a player and my DM tells me I give away a party secret because an NPC intimidated me...I could see it happening in some circumstances (especially if magic is involved) but it would be very rare.

 

[Tormyr]

Don't forget these are ability checks instead of skill checks. If your fighter growls at the target of his intimidation, then it is the normal Charisma (Intimidation). But if the fighter is really strong, it could break a brick in its bare hands while doing it and the DM might let it use Strength (Intimidation).

In the Sleight of Hand example, the rules call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, but they don't talk about what to contest it against. Most of the time Wisdom (Perception) is used. Contested skill checks are not done against Saving Throws (unless your DM wants to). I think an Arcane Trickster can use Mage Hand for Sleight of Hand checks. Does it specify an ability? If it doesn't, then I would use Intelligence (Sleight of Hand) in that case.

 

[Uller]

Don't forget these are ability checks instead of skill checks. If your fighter growls at the target of his intimidation, then it is the normal Charisma (Intimidation). But if the fighter is really strong, it could break a brick in its bare hands while doing it and the DM might let it use Strength (Intimidation).

In the Sleight of Hand example, the rules call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, but they don't talk about what to contest it against. Most of the time Wisdom (Perception) is used. Contested skill checks are not done against Saving Throws (unless your DM wants to). I think an Arcane Trickster can use Mage Hand for Sleight of Hand checks. Does it specify an ability? If it doesn't, then I would use Intelligence (Sleight of Hand) in that case.

Right. And this is why the rules are intentionally vague. The DM has to think on his toes a bit and the players have to accept that things can seem kind of arbitrary and not always predictable.

 

[Skyscraper]

My questions: what, if anything, happens when a NPC tries to intimidate a PC?

It's up to me as DM to be persuasive enough to intimidate the player, so that his PC will in turn be intimidated. I don't have players roll, say, a wisdom save vs an intimidation attempt, and then declare that his PC is intimidated. I feel that being intimidated is up to the player to decide. If he never wants to be intimidated, so be it.

To me, this differs from a magical compulsion, such as charm or domination. In these cases, I'll let the player know that his PC acts or feels differently than the player might have wanted. Players usually get it.

However, intimidation is a skill, not a magical power. I don't want the game I play in to go down into a dice contest. To me, this is role-playing first and foremost, and as such the role-play will determine intimidation.

PC trying to intimidate an NPC: likewise, I'll usually decide how the NPC acts simply based on PC actions. I'll roll for a result if I'm unsure whether the action works.

 

[77IM]

I was thinking more about the Intimidation case. I think applying the Frightened condition is a good way to model fear. But how long should it last?

The closest analog here is Grapple, which is Strength (Athletics) versus Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics), target's choice, and imposes a condition, Grappled. But Grappled doesn't seem as bad as Frightened, and the grappler has to maintain it by not moving away, and it takes up one of their hands. OTOH Grapple isn't a full action (it can replace just one of your attacks) and the victim must use an action and make another check to break free.

Since Frightened seems more severe than Grappled, the easiest solution is to say it lasts for 1 round (until the end of the intimidator's next turn). This gives the intimidator 1 turn to take advantage of the condition. Then the victim "breaks free" automatically, no action and no check. If the Intimidator wants to keep it going, they need to keep using their action to make Intimidation checks (which the victim will have disadvantage on if they can still see the intimidator).

Out of combat, that seems a little weak. One easy solution is give the victim a temporary flaw of "Intimidated;" if the PC acts out that flaw, they get inspiration. If the victim is an NPC, the DM just role-plays it.

A solution that works both in and out of combat is: the Frightened condition lasts until the target makes an ability check or attack roll, or takes a short or long rest. So if an NPC intimidates a PC during a peaceful negotiation, the PC becomes Frightened and is going to take disadvantage on their next check or attack if the NPC is still in sight. If they wait until the NPC is gone, their next roll won't have disadvantage, so they'll get out of the Frightened condition for "free." This works in combat too: an NPC intimidates a PC, and then the PC's options are to go where they can't see the NPC and make a check or attack roll, or else just suffer the disadvantage on their next one. If the NPC dies I'd rule that counts as being out of sight so the PC doesn't suffer the disadvantage then, either.

Either way, the using Frightened condition gives the PC options for how to handle that, instead of having the DM take control of the PC or forcing them to act a certain way.