Resisting saving throws while unconscious

[Hypersmurf]

I'd have to argue that point. While it does say that in the section of the PH on evasion, it does not in the general discussion of reflex saves in the PH or DMG. I find it very hard to believe that something as important as that is ignored everywhere excpet in a little note about evasion and dosn't apply to only evasion.

I direct your attention to PHB p100: Crossbow, Heavy.

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

I find it very hard to believe that something as important as that is ignored everywhere excpet in a little note about evasion and dosn't apply to only evasion.

If this stuff didn't happen, this forum wouldn't exist

 

[Sir Draconion]

im going to disagree with the no reflex rule
its based on the sturdiness of the adventure
years of toughning up for what ever occasion
whether its luck or abstract as hps
yeah give them no dex to there save but be sure to add in all the magic and base saves
look at saves for magic items they get a reflex save

 

[kreynolds]

I find it very hard to believe that something as important as that is ignored everywhere excpet in a little note about evasion and dosn't apply to only evasion.

You mean like automatically succeeding on saving throws with a nat 20?

 

[jasper]

I will have to disagree. You always get a chance to save.
However if you on uncnscious your are knock out and helpless.
from the srd
Bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, or unconscious characters are helpless. Enemies can make advantageous attacks against helpless characters, or even deliver a usually lethal coup de grace.

A melee attack against a helpless character is at a +4 bonus on the attack roll (equivalent to attacking a prone target). A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC was -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

So the person does not get a reflex bonus from his real dex and his temp dex is 0 so now he has a -5 on the roll.
You could do a coup de grace and you are +4 to hit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You could do a coup de grace and you are +4 to hit.

From the SRD:

Coup de Grace
A character can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. A character can also use a bow or crossbow, provided the character is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit.

-Hyp.

 

[Destil]

You mean like automatically succeeding on saving throws with a nat 20?

If this stuff didn't happen, this forum wouldn't exist

I direct your attention to PHB p100: Crossbow, Heavy

Shesh. Point out all the flaws in my logic, why don't you guys? =D (let's not forget my personal favroite, XP rewards for advanced monsters is only mentioned in the DMG in a CR/EL section, and no in the MM with advancing monsters)

Anyway perhaps the best half-way point is this: use their modified Dex score for any condition (effective 0 for unconcious, no bonus for stunned et cetera). For helpless add a +4 to the saving throw DC (like the attack bonus). No evasion. That'll work well enugh for me, at least... I still see any time that a save is disallowed as completly unfair. Of couse I also allow two-weapon fighting to benifit ranged weapons so...

 

[Cloudgatherer]

If you throw a fireball at a bound person, he doesn't get a save.

If you throw a fireball at a sleeping person, he doesn't get a save either.

How exactly does the DM describe the situation if this isn't so?

DM: "The fireball flies into the sleeping noble's bedroom. As the explosion clears, the bed is strangely turned on its side, the noble somehow twisted the bed and managed to avoid serious injury...."

OR even better, said noble has evasion!

DM: "As the explosion clears, the noble is nowhere to be found! Looking carefully around the room, the noble is now sleeping under the bed, having completely avoided the blast!"

Replace fireball with lit bolt or chain lightning and now the sleeping noble can dodge lightning in his sleep! Go noble go!

 

[Saeviomagy]

If you take that tack, then how does evasion work AT ALL?

The same noble is under the effect of a fly spell. He's in the middle of the air. We'll even say that he's moving at speed. A fireball hits him.

Hits him. Dead on. Hell, the little bead bounces off his forehead.

He makes his save, and thanks to evasion takes no damage. He didn't move out of the radius of the attack. He's not hiding behind cover. A big ball of fire, centred on him, just... missed?

In such a world, I don't really have a problem with a sleeping character getting a reflex save. I'd rule that he's awake immediately after having made it too.

As to paralysed characters... I don't know. I really don't.

If an immobilised character doesn't get a reflex save, does an unconscious character get a will save?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

If you take that tack, then how does evasion work AT ALL?

Deftly moves to the side, uses his cloak to absorb some heat, rolls with the force of the blast and skillfully avoids injury.

I can think of at least a few ways when the subject is awake. What does he do while asleep? "He used an incredible snore to combat the blast!" Please.