Response from wotc: Kensi signature weapons break VoPoverty

[Deset Gled]

That's funny, my copy of BOED says "James Wyatt, Christopher Perkins, Darrin Drader" at the bottom.

I believe the comment was refering to The Complete Warrior (which was not written by Darrin).

Frankly, I have to agree with other's that say Darrin's answer just doesn't work out. He claims that a Kensai Monk's body is a magic weapon, and therefore breaks the rule that people with a VoP cannot own magic weapons. I would argue that even though the monk's body is a magic weapon, a person's body should never be considered a "material possesion". If it was, anytime a person had a spell cast on them it would turn their body into a magic item, and thus break the rules of VoP. Since the text of VoP specifically states that spells can still be cast on a person with VoP, this is obviously not the case.

His ruling also causes a number of really strange )) effects. If what he said were to be held true across all the rules, both the monk's Ki Strike ability and the Exalted Strike ability from VoP make the monk ineligible for VoP. Furthermore, it still allows anybody except a monk (including races with natural attacks) to use the Kensai's ability. Both of these conclusions make little sense to me.

As a designer, Darrin can give us insight as to what the intent of the rules are. However, no matter what the intent was, if the rules themselves say something different his oppinion alone will not change them. If Darrin wants his ruling to be made official, that's what errata is for.

 

[Pax]

That's funny, my copy of BOED says "James Wyatt, Christopher Perkins, Darrin Drader" at the bottom.

Mr. Drader said "the books", and in this case, that would include the PHB and Complete Warrior as well. Mr. Drader's name does not appear on the cover either of those two works. Which is why I said (as you quoted) specifically, "all the books".

 

[Trainz]

Disagree all you want, and run it in your game the way you want, but if you don't like my interpretation of the rule, I would invite you to check the names on the cover of the book.

You co-wrote BOED. Congrats ! I wish I would be so lucky and write gaming material for a living. It's been a dream of mine since... since... since I started playing D&D in fact.

That said, I think you're wrong in your assessment. No disrespect meant, it's just not logically stable from my point of view. I hope you will find no offense in my challenging the parameters of something you wrote. If your assessment (in this thread) was your intent when you created Vow of Poverty, then I think you should have made it clearer.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, you didn't have a hand in creating the Kensai. Thus your control of the situation's parameters slips in that regard. For me, it is clear that when whoever designed the Kensai created it's abilities, by allowing the Kensai's imbuing to apply to unarmed attacks, it would simply mean that the character gains innate supernatural powers, unattached to external items.

Which, in fact, ties in nicely with the parameters of your Vow of Poverty character.

In my humble opinion.

Now, that said, an argument might be made about a Monk-VoP-Kensai character being too powerful, but that's not a rules issue, that's a balance issue. It would be quite reasonable to publish errata forbiding a VoP character from ever becoming a Kensai, but only on balance issues.

I deeply hope I didn't offend you with this reply, and if I did, tell me so and I will publicly apologise. I am a musician, and I know that when someone tells me I play something wrong, when I know for a fact that it's intended the way I play it, it might strike a nerve in me. But it comes with the part of being someone who creates stuff to be exposed to the public !

 

[Hypersmurf]

Mr. Drader said "the books"...

... the cover of the book.

-Hyp.

 

[Kalanyr]

I'm actually inclined to agree with the majority here (though I agree that the rules as written forbid it) simply because the Kensai feature doesn't involve spending GP so forgoing it helps no one else by virtue of your povery which I think the spirit of the vow is about.

 

[Trainz]

Derrin, I was reading another thread...

Could it be possible to have epic VoP rules ? Because at level 25, a VoP character will be so underpowered with respect to epic challenges that an epic VoP character becomes non-playable. It would die almost at every encounter.

Epic characters have access to items that greatly surpasses what the VoP gives, which allows them to succeed at those insane save DC's, to hit those super high AC's, to have an AC that sometimes block those critters high attack rolls. The VoP character just can't cope. By the times he plays in a game in the 30's, he will need a natural 20 on all saves and attack rolls.

For your consideration... I'm sure the issue didn't slip your mind. If there are already such rules out there, please point me to them. If it is intentional that there won't be an epic progression for VoP, please explain the reason why.

Thanks in advance, and keep up the good work !

 

[Darrin Drader]

Derrin, I was reading another thread...

Could it be possible to have epic VoP rules ? Because at level 25, a VoP character will be so underpowered with respect to epic challenges that an epic VoP character becomes non-playable. It would die almost at every encounter.

Epic characters have access to items that greatly surpasses what the VoP gives, which allows them to succeed at those insane save DC's, to hit those super high AC's, to have an AC that sometimes block those critters high attack rolls. The VoP character just can't cope. By the times he plays in a game in the 30's, he will need a natural 20 on all saves and attack rolls.

For your consideration... I'm sure the issue didn't slip your mind. If there are already such rules out there, please point me to them. If it is intentional that there won't be an epic progression for VoP, please explain the reason why.

Thanks in advance, and keep up the good work !

Obviously the design for most D&D books is for levels 1-20. I do agree that an epic continuation of the Vow of Poverty is a good idea. Otherwise you are left in a situation where you either get left behind in power level or you break the vow out of necessity. Granted, at such a high level it isn't that difficult to earn enough money through adventuring to make up for the magic equipment you've been missing, but it still would count as a lost feat.

Anyway, I'll talk to the web team and see if they're interested in an epic continuation of the Vow of Poverty. It would probably boil down to little more than a repeating pattern of bonuses, but I feel that it's a good idea. I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I don't think I would allow VoP to work for a monk/kensai because it violates the spirit of the vow. A person with VoP is not supposed to have magic items period, allowing a monk to obtain a magic weapon by becoming a Kensai is circumventing the rules to create an extremely powerful combination. Unbalanced even for my tastes.

 

[Zimri]

Celt can you explain why tatooed monk is allowed then ?

 

[Sejs]

Tattoo'd monk - the tattoos are essentially magic items from a class feature, so they're okay.

Plat. Knight of Bahamut - plat armor and shared hoard are a material possession that is gifted to you from an external agency (as a class feature).

Kensai - enhances an existing material possession (a weapon, which I don't think anyone disagrees would violate the vow in the same way a caster keeping things they made with an item creation feat would), or your own body... which isn't a material possession.

If a Kensai is augmenting their own body via the sig. weapon class feature it would seem to be much closer to the monk's tattoos in fashion.



Oh, and as an aside...

A half-dragon ascetic fighter who fights with claws and teeth...

Yoink!